League Tables using Grade 5 as a "pass" for GCSE?

Some schools don't even know what they're doing.

Dd was the first year of kids to com the new GCSEs in just maths and English. She took the lower maths paper as we were in the dark about what they'd be like and got a 5. It was her lowest result but as she has no plans for maths A level, etc we thought it didn't matter.

She moved school for sixth form and wanted to do geography a level. The sixth form prospectus said you needed a 6 in maths to be able to do geography! So she'd got an A in her gcse geogphy but this as the good enough. I emailed the school and pointed out that universities were only asking for a 5 in maths to do a geography degree so why did she need a 6 to do an A level. They backed down!

Good points CantKeepAway.

And I agree about it not being all about money. Having a good degree gives you choice - to head towards a lucrative career or to choose one which might need good qualifications but not pay well, or towards something which doesn't need a degree. And if your son knows what he wants to do, then following a dream seems worth having a stab at and I'm sure he'll thank you for letting him go for it, whatever the end result is.

I think you're right that until there is a genuinely good option for those who might not be suited to A Level and degree level study, which is attractive and has kudos, A a levels will still be what many many want to do.

We know lots of degrees don't really enhance job prospects of its graduates

However, what is less clear is whether those same people would get those jobs as non-graduates.

So while you might compare 'non graduates' as a group with 'graduates from a particular course' as a group, and find no particular uplift in terms of salary, the question is whether those PARTICULAR non-graduates - ie those at the lower end of the A-level results spectrum - would ever enter those jobs at all if they had no degree.

Many jobs once considered 'non graduate' are being filled with graduates - yes, the latter don't get the pay uplift they might have expected from their degree BUT they may still get the job in preference to a non graduate.

I suppose what i am saying is that for those caught on the borderline - to level or not, then to university or not - there isn't an obvious high quality well-regarded alternative. If they progress onwards through education, yes a proportuion will drop out, but a proportion will go on to get mid-range A-levels and mid-range degrees (or better), and while that option exists (and no other obvious high-quality mass-entry national path presents itself) it will be a direction that many students will still pursue.

(DS, highly able, has chosen a post-18 direction that is statistically unlikely EVER to be financially worthwhile. Worth is not always measured in money.)

It’s not true to say that universities only require a grade 4 in maths and English.
My child is applying this year and at least three of the university open days stipulated a grade 6 in one of the English courses as a requirement for any undergraduate course

Is it more like, that all/most of them require at least a 4 in maths and English, but some require higher grades in one or both?

university.which.co.uk/advice/gcse-choices-university/how-important-are-my-gcse-grades#unicourse

...that has some examples but isn't clear about whether generally 4/5 whereas would have been C in the past

Well there are a variety of universities giving different offers. Therefore what is needed in terms of A Levels and what is nededed to get those A Level grades in terms of entry from GCSE will vary. And it will also vary by subject too. That's why it is difficult to set an overall minimum.

And schools/colleges a phase different profiles. Selective schools and some 6th Forms are aiming for mostly Russell Group Unis and so it would be fair to say that a B at A Level is needed as a minimum for most of those. And in Maths, I'd say a L7 at GCSE is the bare minimum for that and an 8 would be better. In the majority of subjects I'd say a L7 would be what you'd want to have a good chance of a B, although if a 6th form takes new entrants in and knows it can add great value (often selective school 6th forms can to those entering at 6th form level from non selective schools) then a L6 would probably be okay.

Comps and less selective 6th Forms will expect to send their students to a wider range of destinations. Perhaps some will require Ds for entry (and may accept lower on results day). In a non-selective school, teaching a wide range of abilities in one A Level class, I'd say that at least L6 is needed for that and even those with L7s can get Ds at A Level maths. In other subjects a L6 might lead to a D typically or a L5 might get to those kind of D/E boundaries. Of course there will be exceptions who bomb out or perform better. And there's the question of whether it's worth heading into A Levels with uni in mind and the debt it leads to if the results you get at A Level and the courses you can then get into and degree you get and job opportunities that opens up, are really worth it. We know lots of degrees don't really enhance job prospects of its graduates - do people know about being on that sort of trajectory of they enter A Level courses from perhaps a L5 or even a L4?

(To clarify: I know that A-levels are used for purposes other than university entry. However, a situation which would clearly be absurd is one in which all / most schools set higher barriers to entry to A-level - because low grade A-levels were seen as 'not useful' - when those same A-level grades would have been acceptable to the next stage in education. )

Can'tkeepaway, I agree that until the grade boundaries settle down a bit (might that take 4-5 years?) it will be difficult to judge exactly what Level is required for success in terms of higher A Level grades or success in terms of lower grades. However once they settle down, teachers will have a good idea of what is the minimum needed, although might be under pressure in some places to take those with lower grades.

With new A Levels in most subjects being a hit further along the line, experienced teachers who teach in 11-18 schools and who see the students through the process, will probably be able to say which students are likely to do well at A Level and which aren't. Initially they can base that on the skills and abilities such students have, regardless of the grades they attain, then as the grade boundaries settle down, that will align with the Levels.

Often schools ask teachers for 'A Level suitability' as well as predictions. So there will be some students who aren't really suitable for A Level study in mAths because if the big jump up. They might get a 6 or scrape a 7 in maths, but the teachers know those kids won't get high grades in Maths. This is useful for the school advising and helpimg students choose A Level options as there might be other subjects where the student will also get a 6 or 7 and has a good chance of success in that subject. I think schools have the advantage in that they know the students and they know who has the aptitude for A Level study in a certain subject and where the GCSE grade isn't quite an accurate reflection of ability. In highly selective schools almost all will get 7+ but some certainly aren't A Level mathematicians. Likewise in schools which set lower entry bars for A Level, teachers will know that sometimes score one scrapes the L5 or whatever the requirement is, but really isn't suitable for that course - although it might be hard to resist someone who is determined to do that subject when they have the GCSE required, good advice and recommendation and information about alternatives where success is likely to be higher can be very helpful. And it's this advice which I think is often missing. The advice helps the school in that results will probably be higher, but it also helps the students too. Colleges, which have to rely on references and GCSE results and don't know the students lack that ability to make a judgement and advise on the basis of knowing the student.

It’s not true to say that universities only require a grade 4 in maths and English.
My child is applying this year and at least three of the university open days stipulated a grade 6 in one of the English courses as a requirement for any undergraduate course

ChocolateWombat, working backwards: what are the minimum A-level grades that are useful for University entry (ie that universities set as 'conditional' offers)?

Then, what are the 'minimum' GCSE levels that typically lead to such 'lowest offers'?

That should be used to set the 'lowest baseline' for A-level courses.

Another complication is that the 'pass mark' is not a function of 'absolute standard', but a mark set by a statistical calculation of 'the proportion of candidates who should pass'.

For a comparison of how this works, take an MOT test. A car will pass it if it meets all the set standards, and fair it if it doesn't. It doesn't matter how many other cars pass or fail that day - what matters is whether the car meets the standards.

GCSEs are NOT like that. Essentially, once everyone has taken the test and it has been marked, statistical analysis is done to set the pass mark so that 'the right proportion' of pupils pass - if everyone does better, the pass mark is higher. if everyone does less well, the pass mark is lower.

It isn't the entry level everywhere. There is a real variety from places accepting a 4 for some subjects and just having basic L4 General requirement in Maths and English, to places which are much more selective with higher overall general entry requirements and probably 8+ for maths and 7+ for other subjects. These tend to be schools which are selective in the first place though. I think lots of Comps will want 6s in most subjects. Having an eyebtomfilli g the courses and bums on seats might be what leads to some needing to lower entry requirements more, rather than a strong belief A Levels really are for those with 4s or 5s in the subjects they wish to study at A Level. Perhaps some schools and colleges can't afford to be so choosy about their students, but as has been shown on this thread there are a variety of views about what a suitable A Level candidate is.

The actual percentage is a function of the test, though.

It would be entirely possible to set a Maths GCSE such that the 'pass' mark was around 50%. However, the demand for 'more stretching tests', combined with the wish to differentiate between the very top performers (to make it possible to differentiate between an 8 and a 9) has resulted in much lower percentages being a 'pass' (in the Higher Tier papers at least - not in the lower ones. In those, the mark for a 'pass' may in fact be a very high percentage).

The % is, therefore, an artefact of the test set, which is itself a function of the political wish to 'show that We Are More Rigorous'. What mark represents 'a decent standard of general numeracy or literacy, sufficient for the next level of education and for life' is a COMPLETELY different question, and one that is unanswerable.

Slightly off subject, but what concerns me more is that the acceptable level of pass/entry for A Level is a 4/5 when that represents only 20/30% in Maths, and 40/50% in English. Obviously you are always going to have a range of abilities, but for me, this is a very low bar to aim for. How do we pull more pupils up? Is it just money, or is it expectation, aspiration, teaching methods???

Educationally and ethically, I think it is fine to be a 'slightly selective sixth form' where good provision for all who don't quite meet that standard (but still have Level 2 GCSE passes - ie 4 and above; or have very good passes in non English and Maths subjects but need to re-take one or the other) exist.

I DON'T think it is fine for schools branding themselves 'comprehensive' to be closing their doors to those groups where good alternative provision doesn't exist - sensible pathways for all students should be available within reasonable travelling distances.

If a school is the only local 6th form provider, don't they need to offer more than just A Levels, but also courses for those who have got what people are calling L2 GCSEs but at the lower grades and also stuff for those who got below that threshold so all are covered. Isn't one of the reasons why schools lower their threshold and students push for that, because they don't have other options of alternative courses. If there were appropriate provision for them, many might go for that instead of A Levels they are less suited to.

I think open access is fine when there are a range of courses available. It doesn't really work if all you offer is A Levels. A level courses have always had entry requirements. Being a comprehensive school with a. Comprehensive intake at 11 doesn't mean everyone is or should be able to move onto A Level courses.

More isolated comprehensive sixth forms, with a much smaller number of options for post 16 students locally, would need to offer a wider range of options with lower entry thresholds to meet local needs.

Thsi reasonabley accurately describes the provision in my LA! Although my school actually offers a lot of A Levels. We have always prided ourselves on our open access, but we do debate it every year.

I agree about being honest with students, but ALPs stats do tend to suggest they will perform well : so it's all a bit awkward.

We don't use ALIS, wombat. we use ALPs. I frequently get students in my A Level class (won't say the subject but it is a literacy based one) with very mediocre GCSEs which, through the vagaries of ALPs are then indicated B grades. Which is bonkers, obviously. Some do get this, though. Most get Cs. Very few get Ds and we have never had an E (yet : this year will be different, I fear).

DC's comprehensive (with a sought-after sixth form, where the vast majority study A-levels, with a very small number of BTecs) has a minimum entry requirement of 5s in Maths & English (as part of an overall requirement of 5 GCSEs, 3 at 5 and above, 2 at 6 and above).

Within this, most but by no means all of the subjects require one of the '6s and above' subjects to be relevant to the A-level. Maths and Further Maths require more. A number will accept anyone who meets the overall general requirements. Despite the 'published requirements', the school regularly accepts students with 'spiky' profiles who are strong in areas related to the subjects they are studying but weak in others e.g. exceptional artists who need to re-take GCSE Maths or those gifted in Maths / Physics who do not meet the requirement for 5 in English.

It consistently has very high value added scores for 6th form, suggesting that pupils make very good progress to A-level from these starting points.

However - importantly - it exists in a good local 'mixed economy' in terms of Post 16 provision - from very very highly selective (requiring an average result of more than 7 over 8 GCSEs) to college courses meeting the needs of students needing Level 2 qualifications including Maths and English retakes. More isolated comprehensive sixth forms, with a much smaller number of options for post 16 students locally, would need to offer a wider range of options with lower entry thresholds to meet local needs.

I do understand the bums on seats funding needs for schools and colleges - to get the money in when budget cuts mean every students count, and also keeping them on the courses to ensure the funding remains. I can see the tension against what is best for students and also league tables interns if results.

I think too often now the reality is that schools and colleges are so hard up that they can only think about the money side of it - that is their pressing short term need, and they decide they will worry about the results later, and perhaps not the individual students enough at all, to be honest.

The key is honesty with students and parents. Being clear about likely outcomes in different courses from their starting point, plus what will be available next with those likely results is so important. I don't think that honesty is always there and many parents don't know the right questions to ask or think far enough ahead, and just to the fact they want their child to A a levels regardless of if theyvar suitable, or that their child wants to do the same as their friends.

If someone sat RS A Level, with a 4 in English, what would you expect their A Level outcome to be? What would the requirement in RS be or is there only a requirement based on English? I realise a few might take RS A Level who haven't sat RS GCSE?

What do you think ALIS would suggest is the likely outcome in RS A Level from a starting point of a 4 in English GCSE? That might be the 6th Form requirement, but do you think it's the right one? Also genuinely interested.

OK, but you must also have known the opposite. I do know lots like you describe. But also know those who manage just fine from middling to mediocre GCSE results.

But,equally, funding issues mean bums on seats are vital in a state sixth form and it is a financial risk to raise entry requirements.

I have worked in both selective and Comprehensives with 6th Forms in schools. In all of them, there have been general entry requirements and also specific A Level course entry requirements and in all of them, students have left at the end if Yr11 because they didn't meet those entry requirements or what the school offered didn't suit them.

I have known people with children who achieved Cs in GCSEs be allowed onto college A Level courses where they achieved a C at GCSE in that subject and bomb out, dropping out during the L6th or after failing AS exams, or re-taking the L6th year to then fail ASs again, or even being allowed to continue to take the A2 exam and then getting U's. I have known parents of these children say 'they underperformed at GCSE and all they need to do now is work hard and they will do well at A Level' or 'Lots of people perform better at A Level than at GCSE'. I have also known people with this kind of starting profile achieve a couple of E grades, often after dropping down to 2 A Levels.

wombat, what is your experience of non selective, comprehensive schools? Genuine query!

you would only resit maths and English if you missed a 4. We do ahve afew in our sixth form who are doing this, mainly maths resit, but a few in English. Arguably, they are indeed our weakest students.

We only offer one BTec, so these are predominantly A Level students.

All the students, bar these few, have the qualifications needed to apply at least to university.

To get on to English faculty A levels , we require 5s in English and English Lit. But RS, for example, requires 'at least a 4' in English.

yes, English and maths are a requirement : at grade 4 minimum!