has anyone gained a space at a selectiive school without a tutor?

I also agree re; analysing Plath but that is exactly what came up in the WUS exam and at interview, analyse and discuss a Ted Hughes poem! Very daunting for a 10 year old but that is the level of academics expected obviously. I think it must be easier to get into WUS at 7+ as at least you wouldn't have so many hoops to jump through. Gutted though to turn the offer down.

TJsAunt, unfortunately when you enquire about a bursary, you get given a yes/no 'we'll consider you' but no actual details of just how much fee remission there'll be until after the exams. In the case of WUS, it wasn't enough for us to send ds there as the fees are so high, £10,000 a term if you include, uniform, lunches, trips etc. There are no academic scholarships, only music.

There are no gentle, country schools near us sadly (in London) but surprisingly his SS Grammar has very good pastoral care so we thought we'd give it a go. He is lucky to be academic and hard working at the moment so doesn't feel much pressure but of course as he enters the teenage years, this may change!! He has completely relaxed after the 11+ but we might consider tutors again in Year 11 if he starts to struggle as I don't feel I can help much any more.

I think there are gentler day and boarding schools elsewhere. Away from London. Many preps go to 13 and some schools do very well with bright children despite less clamouring for places.

I know SW Herts fairly well. DDs great friend went to Cambridge from Parmiters. Starred first for her degree. They can teach the very brightest of the bright!

MrsPatmore - intrigued - you say if money were no object you'd have gone for a gentle secondary school - and yet you have chosen a super selective grammar school which is the exact opposite of that?

We didn't tutor ours - they were already at a prep school, and I just worked through a few past papers with them in the term leading to the exams. it's horses for course. if you're aiming for WUS then you are on a treadmill that you've chosen to be on. As it is, mine are both at selective independents.

No need whatsoever to analyse Plath at this age IMO!

I agree Bubblesbuddy and my dh was also anti tutoring but unfortunately we were bursary candidates and knew that top scores were needed so had no choice but to join the awful 11+ process as ds was particularly keen on 2-3 of the schools. Once we'd made that decision we put 120% in (and it was 'we'! I had to put in as much work as ds re; research on exam formats etc - it was truly exhausting on top of f/t working and I wouldn't like to go through it again). Hence why we needed a tutor too - for guidance. We went through 3 tutors who didn't really know their stuff before we found a very good group tutor by word of mouth. If money were no object, we'd have gone for an academic but gentle secondary school somewhere in the country!

No, and I don't know anyone else who did either. These were all girls in a private primary going to selective indies. The school prepped them for it and did a lot practice papers. The only thing we, and others did, was buy the 11+ books and work through them over the Xmas hols, just to keep the brain turning over.

Didn’t employ a tutor myself for my DD - she went from a private primary with a small class in year 6 to an academic private secondary - presumed school covered things and I certainly printed off past papers of entrance exams from the schools we were applying to for her to practice primarily because as others have said it’s clearly important to practice before sitting an exam - not just the subject matter but getting used to the style of questions and gettjng used to answering / having a go at all the questions in the time set . So I’d suggest checking out and doing past papers . Depending on your current school set up you may choose to provide support yourself or get a tutor . As an aside I remember printing off maths papers and having a race with my DD to see who could get the most right in the ‘fastest time ‘ just to make it fun for her ( and to reassure myself I could still do 11 yr old Maths ! ) . Good luck .

@bubblesbuddy I agree and am so appalled by it too. Having grown up in London and seen the change is terrible. My son sat the City 10+ last week and just watching the faces of so many of the children was heart breaking. So young and Christmas break sacrificed. I want to pull out the system but yet from my own schooling experience also want an academic school for my eldest.

I am fortunate to be in SW Herts as I have 2 schools Parmiters and Watford Grammar which are also excellent options. I just need to get my head around the expectations of the papers so at least as many have mentioned he doesn't walk into a completely unfamiliar paper.

When a school says it has 800 applicants for 200 places, for example, it’s a slightly false picture to assume the top 200 get in. Of the top 200, 100 might prefer somewhere else. Some children might be sitting exams for 6 schools. You don’t necessarily have to be better than the rest, you have to be as good as or better than the children that actually want that school.

The boys that go to preps until 13 and then do CE or exams for a 13 -18 school stem to have an easier time! This frantic London situation continually appals me!

@mrspatmore thank you like many others for so kindly responding. Your post was very informative and helpful. I also felt City was the one that might be most likely to accept my son. You have been so detailed and helpful with tips which I very much appreciate. Well done to you and your son for his achievement.

I feel clear on the expectations and options. I also believe schools should not tell us not to tutor our children if they know in the end it can make a difference especially with a school like QE. I shall now scour the eleven plus forum for advice and tips. My DH (inner city state educated) is fed up of the expectation to pay for tutoring. So I shall do my prep and my best to support the boys.

of course you can tutor for the 11+

You can't tutor for the 11+ but it is wise to prepare them for the timings and format of the exam.

Confusedmumofboys, my ds sat for, and gained a place at Westminster Under School (wonderful school) and was offered scholarships at the other schools he sat for and also passed (and is at) a super selective Grammar. He did have a group tutor weekly. A lot of the schools say 'don't tutor' etc but this is disingenuous as 95% of children sitting these tests will have had some form of tutoring, at the very least for technique/speed. Whatever they say, they can't weed out the tutored kids as all that we knew who were offered WUS etc were tutored quite heavily. Parental help/prep school help also on top. I'm not saying it can't be done but you will really need to work hard on speed and accuracy and know what each individual exam is looking for.

City is one that you might get offered without tutoring as we know boys who didn't pass even the 'normal' grammar school tests that go there and again it's a great school. The independents have more scope for looking beyond pure test results so you get a second chance to shine. QE is tough as increasing numbers sit each year (2000+ ) and it's first past the post, but if your ds gets a high score there then he's in with a very good chance at the indies of a scholarship.

We prepared from the end of year 4 - gentle build up with the creative writing (English skills are key I think and really separate the boys). Plenty of reading, push a bit to read more challenging texts. Also we used to get poetry books out and discuss them and this was a godsend as almost all of the top schools exams had a poetry element either in the test or discuss at interview. Look at Plath (easier poems such as Mirror, Mirror), Hughes, poems about love, death, ageing and nature. All of these appeared a couple of years ago. I don't think much of this was covered at ds school (and he was at a very good school). Maths - Manchester Grammar school papers were about the right level, but again speed and accuracy needed. Some concepts not taught at school - you'll need to cover the curriculum to the end of year 6.

I think if you have an exceptionally bright child (dont make the mistake of thinking top table is good enough) then parental guidance should be enough. As a ballpark figure, by year 5 ds was gaining marks 137-141 in his CATS tests at school so we knew he was in with a good chance but even so, some of the exams were tough. I would recommend putting in for the Sutton mock tests as this will give experience of sitting in a big hall with hundreds of other children and will give you a good idea of where you're child sits academically in this cohort.
Elevenplusexams forum is your friend and best of luck.

That is true @ChocolateWombat we could never have afforded private education and so prepping for grammar school became my obsession for about 9 months.

Prepped children will have the speed and accuracy which comes through prep and which makes the difference when the vast majority of the very many applicants are very clever. Your DS needs to beat the vast majority of these to get a place. Simply being the same as them won't be good enough, and bearing in mind most will have done intensive prep, not having or epode will put him behind.

Quite whether intensive prep or just prep is needed is open to debate. As you have lots of options and QE isn't your top choice you can afford to prep without going berserk over it - that's a nice position to be in and one many people aren't in, hence their rather manic and obsessive prepping.

In my opinion, everything depends of the named school. If it is a super selective, you will definitely required to be well prepared.
It does not matter where and how you will prepare your child.
Studying at home ( Bond, GL, WHSmith, Letts, Shofield & Sims, CGP, Galore and so on), at learning centre or inviting a private tutor is still the tutoring.
Top rated schools always expect to get the brightest kids. Unless your child a genius without of tutoring it gonna be difficult. Even genius should know the basics of exam techniques.
For example, in our area the average ratio for 11+ is 1:13. We are working hard, home tutoring, school’s assistance and small learning centre. Yesterday, a mock exam showed English 76% and Math 90%.. Main mistakes are not enough attention to the questions and silly technical mistakes. So, we need continue to practice. 🤓🧐😂

Thank you all so much for your messages. We are in NW London. Considering WUS, CLSB, Habs, St Albans, QE, WGSB.

Whilst I prefer not to send him to QE if we opt for the State route it seems silly not to prepare him. DH however is set against any such prep.

I wonder if anyone gained a space at QE without specific prep. As it is an English and Maths paper provided child has covered year 6 material it's hard to understand what the prepped children are able to achieve others can't.

I will continue on and do some research to help prepare them
If anyone reading this gained a space at the schools I have listed with no tutoring would love to hear.

My DC is a bit older than yours but I have friends who tutored their children for entrance to a selective school but will swear blind they didn't.

Otherwise very nice people. Make of that what you will.

My 14 year old got into a selective independent without tutoring. I didn't want him struggling if he got in..

There are around 800 applications for 300 places at his school..

As ever, chocolatewombat hits the nail on the head. Her thread is especially relevant to the hyper competitive grammar school areas around London.

@redyawn do you mind me asking what school your dd went to? I'm a teacher in a Bexley comp and love a non-grammar success story!

My Ds passed the 11+ without any formal tutoring. We purchased some G L assessment papers from Amazon and he did those. We really were not that worried about him gaining a place though as his older brother was at our local secondary modern school and doing fantastically.

He gained a place at the grammar but to be honest I've not been impressed with the school at all, the secondary modern really is the better of the two schools. Very glad that we did not spend any money on tutoring as I don't think in our case it would have been worth it at all.

A different age group but my DS got into both highly selective schools we applied for at 7+ without tutoring although plenty of others probably were . I did do a few Bond assessment papers with him in preparation and we learned the times tables he hadn’t yet done at school . Now he’s in the first year at the senior school y 9 and the past 6 + y there would have been very hard work if you’d need a tutor to get in. Being an academic sporty school it’s been a good fit for him so I’m happy with our choice back then to move at a young age bypassing the scramble at 11 and also 13 since they all went straight through to the seniors after the old transfer exam system changed . Now we’ve decided to keep DD where she is until 11 since for girls the private system is a bit different and she’s happy settled and doing well where she is at my DS old school. Hopefully doing the right thing . At 11 from her school most kids go on to very good next schools anyway .

As has been said, preparation is needed but paid for tutoring isn't the only way to achieve that preparation.

Lots of parents home-help their kids - they research the exam, buy books of ora rice materials - this can range from limited input apart from buying the stuff, to very intensive parental input which is far in excess of what a tutor would supply and far more dedicated, because the parental incentive is stronger than the tutor incentive.

Passing an 11+ having never seen a paper before or had any practice of timing or anything to do with it is unlikely but not totally impossible. These days, with very few 11+ being the Kent where the whole county takes the exam by default and it's therefore an opt-in thing, means parents have chosen to put their child in and therefore they have engaged with the idea of the exam and those who do this and then do zero preparation of any kind are extremely small. Children taking the exams with zero preparation will be disadvantaged as they are against all those who have had been prepared. This applies to both state and independent school exams.

In some of the highly super-selective areas where there are close to 20 applicants per place, being clever alone isn't going to get you in, but a LOT of preparation can get you over the line. It will be very rare for kids to get into these schools without any preparation or even with very limited preparation. Such schools attract able kids to take the exam and in order to beat huge numbers of other able kids, you need to not only be clever but also very good at working in tight time conditions and extremely accurate because a lot of the marks and very bunched and tiny errors can make the difference between a place or not - it is those who have been very very well prepared who have both the ability but also the timing and accuracy due to lots of practice. Many of those kids use tutors who specialise in those super selectives, but again, dedicated parents can do the job too. As others have said, not all parents have the interest to do the preparation, or the time, or the ability to do it or the confidence that they can do it well. For these reasons they might hire a tutor or have a tutor alongside doing home-prep too.

Quite how much prep of either the Tutor or home delivered stuff is required is very debatable. Schools themselves openly discourage tutoring or preparation but know it is rife and with the competition being stiff it's not surprising really and with growing competition and anxiety from parents, the trend looks like the amounts of preparation people undertake will only grow. That doesn't mean that a prepared child who hasn't been hyper-prepared can't do it.

I think most people are talking about grammars whereas the OP is talking about independents. In our experience the grammar test needed prep because of the unfamiliar question types, time pressure etc. The independent exam was just like what they did in school and dd got in with no prep. You would need to check the independents you’re interested in but this was a highly selective, best in the region type school.