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Original poster

How hard is it to do Dutch GCSE outside of school?

35 replies

steppemum · 07/01/2019 16:28

dd is in year 9 and has to chose her options.
She really wants to do 5 things and only has options for 4. The 5 are: German, Geography, 3 sciences (that takes up an option slot as the standard is 2 sciences) Drama (to do the lighting/sound engineering side) and computing. She wants to go into some sort of engineering.

Dh is Dutch. It is important to say that dd is NOT bi-lingual, but she has an everyday understanding of Dutch, so over the meal table, when people say - pass the bread etc, she understands.

I really want her to do a language. She is good at German, but it would be her least favourite option, and the one she would drop in favour of the other 4. She is at a superselective grammar school, and clever, but not super clever, likely to get 7 and 8s I would guess. She has a good attitude and works well, but is quite busy out of school already.

So, one option that has occured to me, is that she could work with a tutor and do Dutch as a GCSE out of school, instead of a language in school. I have a Dutch friend who did this with her neices and nephews living in UK via Skype, and she said the level required was ridiculously easy for a bi-lingual family, but the family she worked with spoke more Dutch at home.
We could easily speak Dutch with her at home and work on it etc. The added bonus is that she learns more Dutch, which will allow her better communication with her cousins.

Is this a nuts idea? At the moment it is just an idea, so don't shoot, me, but please tell me how realistic it is and if it is a stupid plan.

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Original poster
steppemum · 08/01/2019 15:45

Errol, I think she has to do triple science, especially if the choice is drama or triple science!
She doesn't know what she wants to do at A level yet. Or what sort of engineering she wants to do.

It wouldn't surprise me though if she did something techy but not engineering.

OP posts:
BonsoirBonsoir · 08/01/2019 15:44

Errol - while I share your dissatisfaction with the standards required to obtain a GCSE qualification in an MFL, I still believe it is crucially important for every child to study at least one MFL to GCSE. A little insight into another culture is a massive improvement on none.

Original poster
steppemum · 08/01/2019 15:43

Dutch is like an easy version of German so I am sure she'd find both extremely straight forward.
???? really? Do you speak them both then? I speak Dutch and do not understand German, and I can assure you it is no easier to learn than French (although a LOT easier to learn than Russian)

Satsumaeater - the whole point is that while she CAN do German GCSE and Dutch elsewhere, she doesn't have enough GCSE options to do the German and the other things she wants, so doing the Dutch GCSE would have allowed her to do other options. If the Dutch GCSE is not an option, then we will make her do German (or French, which she is now suddenly considering!)

Yes, but being monolingual really isn't a problem for most anglophones
I am just itching to have a rant at that, but I won't, as everyone has been full of nice suggestions.

I would just pount out that I have lived in Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Central Asia, and Holland, and in all of them I needed to speak something other than English! In fact I do speak Indonesian, Russian and Dutch.

My Dutch PILs don't speak any English. My Dutch SIL does, but not really well enough to chat in a lot, just enough for her to communicate with my kids when they don't understand the Dutch.
Most of Dhs friends speak fluent English and at first we did everything in English and it was fine. Then, after I had done an intensive Dutch language course, we told them that we would only use Dutch, and if I couldn't follow everything, then I would soon learn. At this point I discovered a whole new group of people. Speaking in their mother tongue they were so funny and relaxedand quite different to the more formal group they were when speaking English.

No, being monolingual is not enough in the world we live in.

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 08/01/2019 15:41

You're right, bonsoir, but I don't believe gcse MFL goes anywhere near the level where it aids that understanding.

Re the triple science... the OP describes her DD as 'clever but not super clever', in a superselective school. In that context, I think she'd be wise to optimise her chances in the subjects she'll be wanting to do at A level. The best engineering courses want high grades (including an A* or two) in physics, maths and ideally FM ( and/or chemistry for chem eng). With that in mind, sacrificing triple science for any of the other subjects doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

clary · 08/01/2019 15:25

"Dutch is like an easy version of German" errr no it's not!

I am fluent in German, how I can tell if people are speaking Dutch is that it sounds as tho I should be able to understand it... Then I listen in and realise I can barely make out a, word! 😁😁

BonsoirBonsoir · 08/01/2019 14:59

Learning MFLs is not just about being able to converse. Deep communication with people from other cultures doesn’t happen unless both parties speak one another’s language and understand their culture and its underlying assumptions. This is one of the reasons why the EU is less palatable to the less educated among the English than the more educated, who tend to have a better grasp of the cultural similarities and differences of our EU partner nations.

TeenTimesTwo · 08/01/2019 14:44

annie Although what you have said is my understanding too, I think it does at least partly depend on the cohort. If everyone else has done triple, it may be harder having only done combined as the teacher will assume everyone knows the triple content. Whereas in a more mixed cohort more allowances may be made.

anniehm · 08/01/2019 14:39

In all honesty double science is fine for science levels - my dd did just th double science and is on track for 4 stem a levels at grade a. (She changed her mind completely at 15 hence only choosing double science)

ShalomJackie · 08/01/2019 14:31

Bear in mind that some of a her drama marks will be based on group work! Not always the best idea. Again she could do this as a hobby whereas computing and german are more likely to feed into an engineering career.

Again EBacc like SATS is more for the school than the child. She will never put on any application form or CV that she has EBacc.

ErrolTheDragon · 08/01/2019 14:27

The GCSE language thing - dh and I both feel that all kids should study at least one MFL up to GCSE level. He actually did English, German and French, and he is NOT a linguist. It was standard in Dutch schools

Yes, but being monolingual really isn't a problem for most anglophones whereas only speaking Dutch would be pretty limiting. And U.K. language GCSEs really aren't (imo) that good for enabling a functional use of the language.

I once went on a short business trip to Amsterdam with a Dutch colleague and most of the time her conversations with other Dutch people were in English!ConfusedGrin

Satsumaeater · 08/01/2019 14:24

Why can't she do GCSE German and do Dutch outside school - I mean not a GCSE? For example you can do GCSE level courses at all the main cultural institutes like Alliance Francaise and the like. There must be a Dutch equivalent.

Dutch is like an easy version of German so I am sure she'd find both extremely straight forward.

Also look at the Language Centre at the university of Groningen, they do online courses.

Totally agree with making kids do a GCSE in MFL - it should be compulsory. British kids are just as intelligent as foreign kids, they can learn languages just as easily.

Original poster
steppemum · 08/01/2019 11:49

Thanks all,
There are lots of other options available, eg Art, music, DT tech options, but these are the ones she wants.
I am a bit frustrated as her brother is at the boys school next door, and they all do 3 sciences as standard and then 4 options, so they effectively do an extra GCSE.

I agree that drama is the one that she should lose, but it is, at the moment, her favourite option! I think partly as light relief.

The GCSE language thing - dh and I both feel that all kids should study at least one MFL up to GCSE level. He actually did English, German and French, and he is NOT a linguist. It was standard in Dutch schools. We insisted that ds had French as one of his options, much to his fury, and he is also NOT a linguist. But he has persevered, and in the effort to actually pass his French GCSE has massively upped his work in French, and on the way to Holland at New Year was speaking load sof French to us in the car! So we do feel we were right to persevere. At the very least he now knows that he can learn a langauage if he needs to.

There is no way Dh would let dd go through with no language, and, the thing is, she is very good at languages, and would get a good mark.
She has attended a few STEM days organised by local engineering companies and school. I have a look for Arkwright and Smallpiece courses.

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 08/01/2019 09:08

Blimey, that's not many options for a superselective...I realise the new GCSEs are harder but it does limit their choices early.

FWIW ...my DD is studying engineering and did that exact set of options plus electronic products and further maths as a twilight class. The latter two were actually the most relevant to her future aspirations (maybe fm isn't needed with harder GCSEs?). Putting those aside, she'd have dropped German like a shot if she'd been allowed. The drama was a nice change from the other stuff and the group work was a good experience (that can go either way!). Comp sci...engineering students need to talk to computers more than Germans!Grin Geography - hm, wouldn't really want no humanity in the mix.

So, reluctantly, I'd say ditch the drama. Computing might be dispensable if she can learn to code outside of class - are there a coding and/or robotics clubs she can participate in?(tbh I'd encourage doing the latter anyway).

As a budding engineer, btw, do check out Smallpeice courses, and find out if her school participates in Arkwright scholarships - this is thinking well ahead but with no tech subject, the project part of that might be harder to manage.

BigGreenOlives · 08/01/2019 08:36

If you live in London or within easy reach there is a Dutch Saturday school, friends of ours took their daughters. There’s also a Russian school based in Ealing & Danish in central London somewhere.

BonsoirBonsoir · 08/01/2019 08:31

I also think that the technical side of drama might be addressed in a more interesting way at a club or summer school. My DD (14) does filmmaking camps in the summer holidays and had a camera/tripod for her birthday/Christmas last year. This enables her to make fantastic films for eg school group work and gives her a lot more freedom than a school curriculum drama course.

BonsoirBonsoir · 08/01/2019 08:26

Useful thread! Your DD could always do a summer course in Dutch in the Netherlands and it would be a lot more relevant than a GCSE designed as a MFL for English speakers.

TeenTimesTwo · 07/01/2019 22:11

steppe Sorry, I didn't mean to sound overly critical, and I think it wasn't a totally unreasonable question. If you want a language purely for the Ebacc then I really wouldn't bother, it doesn't gain her anything. Triple science will mark her out as 'academic' even without a language.

However if she has her sights on engineering then German would be potentially useful career wise I think due to strong German technical companies. (vorsprung durch Technik or whatever)

otoh, I also wouldn't drop Geography as it goes well with science stuff if her focus changes in the next few years. e.g. Suppose she went for chemical engineering.

I know there are technical options for drama GCSE, but has she looked into what % would be that versus areas she is less interested in?

Original poster
steppemum · 07/01/2019 21:58

good point about the drama MaisyPops, we have an options evening coming up, I'll make sure I ask about that then.

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MaisyPops · 07/01/2019 21:54

I wouldn't worry too much about ebac ad such if she really doesn't want to do it. It's a useful hand of qualifications to have and demonstrates a broad all round aptitude.

Personally, I would drop drama and take German. If she is interested in the back stage and technical side then she is likely to get quite frustrated at how little that's covered (although a drama specialist may correct me). She could get experience doing that by joining the tech team at a local youth theatre.

Original poster
steppemum · 07/01/2019 21:47

well, that is the end of that idea.
I think she needs a GCSE level language for lots of reasons, so she will do German.
I agree that dropping the drama (or the computing) would be logical, but she is so keen to do both of those, they are her two favourite options.
She has to do 3 sciences as she is heading for STEM career, and she would also happily drop Geography, but then she has no humanities.

I don't know how much store to set by Eng BACC, but she would need Geog and the language to have it.

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Original poster
steppemum · 07/01/2019 21:42

Oh I didn't know the GCSE had been scrapped! My friends neice only took it last year, so I assumed it was still available Sad

You could have brought her up to be bilingual, but you have chosen not to, but now it is important enough to try to do the GCSE out of school, just so as she has a language GCSE? Why?
You know, it is really easy to criticise on the internet, just throw out sarcastic comments. I will explain why, not because I think I need to justify myself to you, but because I hope it will make you think twice before you launch in.

We did bring her up to be bilingual. Aged 4 she was fluently tri -lingual in Dutch, English and Russian. We were living in Central Asia. Dh spoke only Dutch to all the kids, and it was working perfectly. Then life happened.
first, her older brother struggled much more with the languages, and in order to begin school he had to be able to speak Russian to the required level. His Russian was the worst of his 3, and he never spoke it to other kids in the street. So for a year we spent a lot of time focussing on Russian and the Dutch took a back seat.
Then her younger sister became ill. We had to return suddenly to the UK. Dh had to finish working his project in Central Asia. I was in Uk with sick toddler, needing regular hospital visits, and 2 other kids, staying with my mum, and dh flying in and out, for 6 months. In those 6 months they stopped speaking Dutch. Although I am a fluent Dutch speaker, my language with them had always been English, and our whole family's stress levels were running high. Didn't think it would matter, as we assumed we would pick up again when all back together. I was also trying to keep up ds Russian, so he could start school when we returned.
Then we didn't return to Central Asia.
Then dh found that the kids refused to speak Dutch to him, and wouldn't engage or speak to him when he spoke to them. I wish I had been stronger in saying he MUST persevere, but we didn't. Our youngest was still ill, we were settling the older two into new schools, Dh was beginning a new job, we were all adjusting to massively different sudden change of circumstances, and the opportunity was lost.

They get Dutch immersion once or twice a year for a week at a time, but it isn't enough.

OP posts:
clary · 07/01/2019 19:22

Yes I knew OCR had scrapped MFL (DD did OCR French in 2017 and was the last cohort) but I didn't realise no one else did it!

TeenTimesTwo · 07/01/2019 19:18

njs73 I think it is quite sensible and fair. GCSE languages aren't meant for bilinguals to pick up an easy GCSE. On a CV they should be able to state bi-lingual English and Dutch (or whatever). I'd be amazed if any school in the land was actually teaching Dutch.

njs73 · 07/01/2019 18:58

OCR have scrapped all of their languages including French, German and Spanish ! Some like Turkish are being taken over by Edexcel but Dutch has gone completely.

clary · 07/01/2019 18:51

Oh njs I didn't know that! There's your answer then op. I would still encourage more Dutch at home tho (tho do not be deceived by those who say it's just like German, it's not).