11+ process has to change...

Why does it have to change because you chose to spend money on other things?

Speaking as someone who’s been through the system a few times in several different configurations now my main conclusion is that what all the academic schools (grammar and selective private) want are children who will work really really hard. And that usually means they need parents who will engage and encourage/make them graft. And at the end of the day an average child who works really hard will usually do better in public exams than a gifted one who spends more time ‘playing’ (sport or otherwise) so I suppose it all makes sense.
One of my daughters was at a super grammar and the work ethic of the girls, probably instilled by the parents, was breathtaking.
So if you want your child to be in those top schools (and I’m not saying anyone should) you have to play the game and compete with the preparation.

And of course many children will do well at a non selective school if they are encouraged or are brilliant.

Not for every child and only a parent can decide if it’s right for their own.

Sheonas You should start your own thread - people won’t notice your post at the bottom of this old one. FWIW, I think any of the VR and NVR tests (a mixture of the various types) are what you need for WHS. It’s probably more DIYable than the exams for similar schools, which are looking for more of a breadth of knowledge and skills across English and Maths as well as some VR / NVR. From what I heard from the school, they listed the children in order of their marks on the VR and NVR, took the top half through to stage 2, and then adjusted the ranking slightly based on their performance on the day.

We live in a full grammar area - my daughter had a choice of three grammars and my son had a choice of two. My son's grammar school is more interested in the rounded individual - my daughter's grammar school said they were but were really an exam sweat shop so we just pulled her out. But regardless of my son's grammar school being interested in well rounded individuals - they still need the children to be academically capable. They are a grammar school after all - they take the children through the material as fast as they can go to then make sure they learn the material indepth at the higher levels. By the end of year 7, my daughter and many others were getting grades of 4 and higher which in theory is a pass for some GCSE subjects. Its was nuts. I think the whole grammar school system is flawed because most people tutor now - but regardless these tutored children have proven that by hard work they can perform at the higher levels and can pass important exams while feeling under pressure. Whether they want to continue working that hard at for the next 7 years of high school is another thing!

Can you please advise if there are any tutors or classes that especially prepare kids for WHS exams.
Keen for her to get into WHS.

My DD failed the 11+ grammar school test and yet got a place at Oxford. She is well rounded and not just academic. We also believed the story about not tutoring and found out afterwards that all the DCs who got in had been heavily tutored in one form or another. A bright and determined child can does not have to go to a grammar school to do well.

I went to a private selective school.
Such places can do what they like on admissions.
The OP's focus on the 11+ was misplaced

I was just messing about by mentioning Comps as there are hardly any of them in London

It's neither rude nor hilarious to not address something which is a completely different issue to what the OP is posting about. Other people have misinterpreted what process she was talking about. But it's very very clear of you read on. You could start a thread about the injustices of the 11+ grammar process and I'm no word ignore the posts.

Maybe - but it doesn't take long to post 'sorry, I meant to say xyz' though does it. No excuse for bad manners.

NoLeslie That’s because Talkinpeece (under various variants of username) has well-known views on selective education. There’s lots of threads to debate that. The OP has no doubt weighed up her options and made her own decision. I’m sure that you and others disagree, but on this thread she’s seeking support for a disappointment, and she’s focusing on responses to that. Which I think is fair enough.

NoLeslie for the bulk of the private-school cohort, state schools only exist (so they've heard) for other people's children out there somewhere . . Except possibly for the odd Superselective grammar school, naturally! Selection, segregation, more selection, more segregation . . . Anything to reassure ourselves that Our Super Children are properly distanced and distinguished from the great unwashed mass of Other People's . . .

But isn't that because this thread is about the London independent 11+ process which is completely different to the Grammar school 11+ process?
I don't think the comments are being ignored as such, they are just not relevant to the OP and it doesn't need to be another State v Private thread..

Do any of the other posters on this thread find it rude and /or hilarious how all references to state school and the genuinely shite 11+ system are being studiously ignored?!

Hello OP, are you receiving?

The key thing with the Y7 process is that you have to choose the right school for your child? Whether that's a grammar, a comp or an independent school.

The grammar school process is really broken IMO - a one day snapshot of a 10 year old determining whether their tutor did a good enough job? pah.

The 11+ process you are talking about is a different kettle of fish. You yourself describe your dd as not being top of the class academically. Sorry, but that is what WHS are looking for. So maybe she would have passed had she been tutored, but ultimately it doesn't sound like the right school for her? If she's sporty/musical and academically ok -then you need to choose a school that fits that combination? Am not an expert in SW London but there must be some schools that would suite her far better than WHS? the application deadlines have officially passed now - but most independent schools will be flexible if you can explain your case well?

“There is clearly a huge problem with the 11+ process.”

If you are talking about the actual 1+ for state Grammars: yes, huge problem. It divides children between Grammar and what is essentially a secondary modern on one day, one test, divides by one mark and treats those whose parents can afford 3 years of private tutoring the same as those on FSM.

But you have chosen of your own free will to put your Dd into an optional system to select a private secondary. They are businesses. Tney can do what they like. They select the children they believe will push them up the league tables. Some prize sports or music, some provide a less selective environment for those who don’t get into the academically competitive schools. You were just naive.

I hope your Dd isn’t too badly knocked back and that you will find a school that she is happy in I am sure you will.

Hi Gorobe, I totally feel your pain! I’m going through this process, having applied to the same schools on your list and a few others, for the third time and have become very jaded!.
I was very naive with my first. We were at a state primary and DD had one hour tutoring a week of English and maths from spring year 5 but we didn’t do any reasoning, nor did I spend our holidays doing papers, nor did I have any clue that at the local prep schools
on top having intensive practice in exam technique many of the children were having tutoring on top from subject specific tutors. It is so highly competitive and you are quite right the heads all discourage tutoring and then inadvertently shut the door on many of those who didn’t receive it or had comparatively little. They simply cannot know. What is particularly unfair though is that as you say it’s disingenuous of the heads to imply they can tell when they discourage tutoring. I now have one child at a “super selective” and one at a less but still highly selective (hey it’s all relative!). What I have found is that I suppose for the very reason so many children make it through exams for which they have been prepped since year 4, once they arrive some, unsurprisingly, struggle. This means even in a “super selective” you get a range of abilities and in a slightly less selective you still have some very very capable children, and the children all develop at different paces so some only start to fly academically in year 9 but never would have passed a highly competitive exam in year 6. So try not to worry, the main thing is everyone one of your schools will enable your daughter to flourish.

Finally, I know the north London consortium changed their exams to reasoning to make them less ‘Tutorable’, but of course Tiffin girls a few years ago decided that reasoning was SO tutorable they would replace it with maths and English. There is no winning! What would be nice is if the London indies clubbed together and said kids can on,y do a max of five and they will do the same exams, say two English, two maths (to cater for different school styles), various reasoning etc maybe over a few days even, you List your five choices in order and then see which (one) letter arrives in Feb.. Hey ho!
At any rate in retrospect I rather wish I had sent both my kids to the slightly less selective option. Some of the parents at the “super selective” pressure their children enormously (suspect they were doing hours of tutoring!), and even when th school does all it can to put the brakes on that, its permeates everything (kids going well beyond time allotted time for homework, fine if they love it but not great if in year 8 they can’t fit in any extracurricular), kids crying for fear of their parents if they get a 98 etc!, and I fear my child feels like she is in a pressure cooker. )-:

Comprehensive schools are an even better option
no stress
no exams
no fees
kids still achieve their parents goals

OP I’m sorry your dd didn’t get through, and I hope she has success elsewhere and finds the right school for her.

From my perspective, the main problem with the 11 plus process is that it’s so many exams in quick succession - it’s a lot for a 10yo. I’d prefer a S London version of the N London Consortium process, where one exam does lots of schools. My dd had Sutton High, WHS and SPGS first stages on a Friday, then the following Monday and Tuesday - that felt unnecessarily pressured. Even if they only shared the first stage, that would be a start.

And we haven’t tutored (well, depends what you mean, my dd did practice papers at home with us) and she isn’t at a prep, so it’s been about as low pressure as you can get in the circumstances.

Is it not perhaps more of a case of accepting that your daughter is going to be great at many things, and probably have a very well rounded life, rather than prep the hell out of her to pass a test. Surely it will mean that throughout secondary school she will then struggle? I entered the grammar system 20 odd years ago, and looking back as someone now involved in education , the teaching was appalling! We were all basically expected to cope on our own.
Things may have improved since, but that could be the reality for her. Would it be worth investigating an academy that specialises in drama or sport perhaps?

This thread is muddled up between the 11 plus (state school) & private school entrance exams. Private schools can select however the hell they like. Saying that the entrance procedure for a private school has to change is daft. Noone is forcing you to put your daughter in for the exam. If you were in Buckinghamshire or Kent (fully selective counties) & applying for state schools your title would make more sense.

In olden days, the 11+ was just something that everyone did and there was no preparation, other than what went on in school. It was intended to show the capability of students, with questioning that couldn’t be rehearsed prior to the test.

Maybe that’s what it should be now. I think it could be detrimental to mental health, to have been tutored so heavily to pass a test and then find that the day to day effort and ability required is stressful.

Emanuel is changing its entrance procedures. They can no longer interview every candidate (numbers were ridiculous, guillotine falling months before expected deadline).

Unless you are a sibling, or are going to be offered a scholarship in music, drama, art or sport(those candidates only need meet the basic pass mark; though that has been rising, and every now and then a sibling doesn't join) it's going to be the highest scores. The score you need as a gift-time, non-scholarship candidate has risen considerably in the last few years.

It's sheer pressure of numbers that makes it so stressed, and you do get some odd outcomes. As long as you applied for a range of schools, and those schools are ones your prep HT thinks are suitable, then it's very likely something will come up.

Some state school are very good - though in that part of London may have an entrance test (eg the Wandsworth test) and selection is by address (distance) or just random (lottery). If you don't live close enough to the ones you like, you could end up with a very bad fits school indeed.

Why don't you consider comprehensive schools? London state schools are among the best in the world (check scores compared with other OECD countries) and most have a broad intake so they are entirely able to teach to the top and the bottom of the class.
Me, my DD and my brother all went to London state schools and got As/A*s at A level.
They are also free and no entrance exams.