Setting for Maths in Year 7

born
We do financial literacy from y7 to 11 but it's added into the PSHE programme. That's fine if you've got a tutor who is confident at explaining it, but less so if you have a tutor who is perfectly competent at the numeracy but can't explain it.

That and teaching mortgages to year 10 when a good 50% of them won't own their own house and home ownership is something other people do is a really tough gig to have. I dont think that was one of my finest lessons.

Maisy apart from basic, straightforward computational skills, for example finding a fraction of a quantity by dividing by the denominator and multiplying by the numerator - many learners think they have to convert the fraction to a percentage, over-complicate things and get muddled - there are problems involving scheduling, route finding, tax/pensions/expenses, which are firmly based in everyday life and which are crowded out of school curricula. That’s really what my learners mean.
There have recently been calls for financial education in schools, which might go some way to solving the problem, but not I think if it were just farmed out to anyone with gaps in their timetable (cf PSHE, Citizenship).

So Shanghai has the least able doing double the amount of maths lessons each day. France adds on years of education to the least able. But cakes insists that bottom sets needing more time to do stuff and go more slowly is a failure of setting.

borntobequiet
I had this this week but from a 6th form student saying 'we were never taught... at gcse'. They were and the thing they were complaining about was more y7 skills.
Retention and the ability to apply knowledge rather than regurgitate it doesn't come easily to some students.

I teach Functional Maths in FE.
Learners often say “why wasn’t I taught this at school?”

(To be fair, they may have been, but real life practical problem solving skills can be obscured by everything else in the curriculum.)

cakes
Nope. More finding it amusing that you are so driven by your 'my opinion is right' that you seem to be working your way through whatever tangents, assertions and selective references of other education systems you can.
Now we have this: Low skills, unemployment, MH illnesses also cost money. They do cost money, but it has nothing to do with setting (unless of course you're now going to argue that setting causes unemployment and causes mental health issues )

There are many variables affecting student outcomes. There are pros and cons to different ability groupings (which often links to other variables such as cohort, staff, subject).
If I think of schools i know, some set and some do mixed and some do loose groupings. The high performing schools have a mix of sets and mixed. The low performing schools have a mix of sets and mixed. Setting or not is not the driving factor of the different results. As said repeatedly, it's more complex than you suggest.

It is more complex because every school year in France has multiple ages, as seen in table 1 page 91, and page 103.
Because they start at different age even in their Reception (page 69, table 1 bottom).

Some students entered Bac early at 14, 15, 16, 17, and also at 19, 20 and older. It is the legacy, which they are phasing out fast (page 103). Number of repeats fallen sharply to 0.4-2,2% from 9% in 2005.

Most able can go faster. Less able can catch up, but nobody is left outside in the cold.

The real answer to what they did to improve outcomes is in primary school, at the entry, at the age of 6 and 7. They delayed entry in primary for some.

The “policy of fluidity of trajectory” reduced the falling behind in Primary school drastically, which benefited the most socially advantaged and the most disadvantaged.

Five years after starting their first primary year (CP), 91% are in year CM2 as expected,
1% skipped a year forward and are a year ahead, 7.6% are behind, 0.2% are in Special schools or 2 years behind (Page 77. Table 1).
Graph 2 shows most of the falling behind is at the age of 6 and 7 in CP, CE1.
They reduced falling behind sharply illustrated by the cohorts of 2011 vs 1997.

The percentage of children who started secondary school at expected age is 92% in 2017, a sharp increase vs 82% in 2005. Those who are 1 year ‘late’ are 7.6%, a sharp reduction from 17% in 2005. (Table 1, page 75)

The percentage of children who don’t repeat years has increased (Table 3, p 77) for children of:
Senior Managers, Professions, businessmen: from 89.8% to 96.4% (+6%)
Unqualified manual workers: from 66.6% to 86.7% (+20)
Unemployed who were never employed: from 57.6% to 75.7% (+18)
But they claim they reduced this unemployed statistic drastically by 3.5% in just one last year.

These 7.6% being 1 year behind in Primary could be dealt with good intervention, SEN or otherwise, to remove repeating all together.

Whatever it was, their new policy improved outcomes for the disadvantaged and helped the advantaged as well. The most able started primary earlier and skipped a year forward if necessary.

What actually happened it seems is that they set as it were at the entry to primary school. They keep them in early years until they reach the milestones and are ready (page 68). The most able can start early. The whole school year is a set. Table shows children starting their CP at the age of 4, 5, 6 (the nominal age) or 7 etc. (page 69, table 1 bottom, column 2,3,5). It gives numbers of children by age from 4 to 11 in Preelementary and in Elementary (=primary)). There is huge overlap starting from 4 years old, staged entry. So every school year has multiple ages up until their year 12.

The difference is made in early years and Infant school.

Clavinova,

All school years since their Reception are multiple age – they start at different ages..

It is complex, but simple. Back of an envelope estimate:
Population by age group (Table 1, page 17), total adds up to 67 million.
There were 807,618 born in 1998, who could have sat Bac in 2017 at 18 years of age.

732700 divide by 807618 = 90.7% entered Bac of all born in 1998
643800 divide by 807618 = 79.7% passed Bac of all born in 1998

So it is 79% in a generation.

The BEP and CAP numbers you quote are double counting.

BEP is integrated into Bac Pro, all BEP students enter Bac if they don't have one (Page 228, line4) . It is an intermediate pre-cursor and covers the e.g. the Beautician part of the Beautician Bac Pro. The whole point of their reform is that vocational students are given the opportunity and have to stay in secondary education and enter Bac with its Maths, Language etc in addition to purely vocational content, even if they attend a FE college. (BEP is supposed to be entered at 17, not 18)

CAP is vocational for 17 yo, but also an additional qualification, adults further education.
CAP may account for the 10% who have not entered Bac.
732,700 + 87,975 = 820,675, that is 13 thousands more than the population born in 1998.
So clearly there is double counting somewhere. Maybe some CAP students also enter Bac.

This actually shows that no students are left behind without opportunities.

Maisy,

You are rambling and got lost in the maze of your own misrepresentations. Don't hide the wood behind the trees. It is not like there are positives and negatives to apples falling down and apples falling up. It is all a matter of opinion, and nuanced understanding of complexity.

In the real world apples are falling down. All advantages are for the top sets, all disadvantages are for the middle and lower sets. They are paying the price. I am talking about real children, their aspiration, the chances in life, their wellbeing.

Low skills, unemployment, MH illnesses also cost money.

The "most other people are totally open to saying there are pros and cons of many grouping types" does not bye them much.

Courses are free or low cost (like £200) - like the cost of a phone.

Some places have smaller class sizes for lower sets and more experienced teachers with them. This isn’t abandoning them.

Why shouldn’t kids be proud of functional skills? In some adult education places there are functional skills courses for maths (as well as gcse). The papers like look v practical and sensible.

If you scroll down to pages 228-235 of cake's pdf booklet - there are further tables for 16,17 and 18 year olds who studied for vocational diplomas - the CAP and the BEP. These appear to be similar to an NVQ1 (the CAP) and an NVQ2 (the BEP) - they are tabled in separate columns to the BAC Pro:

In 2017, 87,975 17/18 year olds studied for the CAP (plus 150 16 year olds) and 126,696 17/18 year olds studied for the BEP (plus 437 16 year old).

These must be the students taking lower qualifications mentioned by the International School in Grenoble - over 215,000 students in total - some of whom will go on to take a BAC qualification later on.

Candidate numbers are simple
2017 732700 entered Bac, 643800 passed; pass rate= 87.9% (pdf page 218)

Not simple at all.

If you look at the table on page 225, the number successful laureats aged 17/18 in 2017 was 446,751 + 638 16 year olds.

Almost 30% of successful laureats (191,105) were aged 19 or over

Therefore, I am still not convinced about the translation of "in a generation".

If the beautician (possibly aged 19 or 20) only needs an average pass mark of 50% in the maths element, why does she need to answer any of the difficult maths questions?

I love that cakes is now going on about everyone else making repeated assumptions when most of this thread is 'here's my opinion, don't tell me it's more complex, sets are evil for kids, sets are responsible for the outcomes of a norm referenced qualification, sets are terrible, more waffle about how schokls sjould gwt 90% of students over a norm referenced threshold without changing anything (but when people point out again thia doesn't work, suddenly we do need to make changes and should have used our imagination to pragmatically work out what reply they wanted. Look at my selective referencing of a different system, don't tell me there are problems in that system, oh look a selective representation of another system... and so on... Why can't you guys just get that sets are evil... pages later, you lot make assertions!'

The stupid thing is most other people are totally open to saying there are pros and cons of many grouping types. Only one person is being narrowly driven by their opinion.

But if the bac gets people to maybe just above gcse level by age 18, in uk we have maths and further maths a levels that kids get to at that age.

You mention 2 years additional preparation after bacc. But that is like saying put in more money, have smaller class sizes. I think on the continent it takes longer to do uni qualifications - something to bear in mind with huge tuition fees. Would we be willing to put in the extra money to get the same number of maths grads?

That’s not to say that if there was a pot of additional money, we shouldn’t use it to help the lowest attaining. Maybe free summer school for those who failed SATs (the earlier you intervene the better)?

If we did teach without sets then there would just be a bigger gap between private schools (where most would set pre-gcse) and state - selecting on wealth.

It is a false dichotomy that teaching middle ability somehow deprives a generation of skills. It is an absurd myth. There are no real data, just repeated assumptions.

It is also a myth that top sets somehow accelerate progress. If they were going faster, they would be graduating from university at 18.

The mentality about valuing the able and not valuing the average learners leads to using teaching methodology focussed on particular type of most able students, which holds back, slows down the development of the middle and lower ability students, while sets cement the disadvantage. This is cynical and cruel. UK is unique in this. I am bored of repeating that other countries do much better for both the top and the middle. You wouldn't accept that because the parents of the average kids are not as vocal, connected and organised. We can't make you listen.

Most of the world educates the bright scientists and the rest of kids without sets.

What you express above is a widely held conventional belief. I understand on personal level why you came to believe this. But it is absolutely unacceptable, I reject that with every gut, as long as I live.

The meaning of :
"Parents have a role to play if they can - and should be given early honest assessment of their child’s readiness for each level

For those who can go faster why not let them? The education system only has a limited amount of money and Most people would say it should teach the population as a whole the skills the country needs (not everyone needs everything - I don’t use trig). We have a lack of maths and science graduates. Schools must also ensure kids are at the right level for uni."

The meaning of this is "you should accept we discarded your [perfectly able] child, as we can do that if she is not in top set. Can't you understand, she is not worth the education and not worth the money. We need to focus on the most able"

Cakes - why not do functional skills first then foundation then higher paper? Now that kids have to study maths and English until they either get to 18 or get a 4 this should give more time for those who need it. Parents have a role to play if they can - and should be given early honest assessment of their child’s readiness for each level

For those who can go faster why not let them? The education system only has a limited amount of money and Most people would say it should teach the population as a whole the skills the country needs (not everyone needs everything - I don’t use trig). We have a lack of maths and science graduates. Schools must also ensure kids are at the right level for uni.

2014 was before they reformed the Bac and pass rates increased sharply as graph page 223 shows. Private school marketing.

Your 'under 80' ties with 88% who passed Bac in 2018.

Candidate numbers are simple
2018 765500 entered Bac, 675600 passed ; pass rate=88.3% gov site
2017 732700 entered Bac, 643800 passed; pass rate= 87.9% (pdf page 218)
2017 796449* enter Brevet, 720700 passed; pass rate = 89%
(* student population in year Troisieme, pdf page 91, line 23, column 7. Passed - page 216)

Repeating years dropped sharply from 9% in 2000, to 0.4 - 2.2% in 2017.(Table 2, page 91)

My point was 79% have passed a maths qualification equivalent or superior to GCSE.

Some DC / subjects do better in exams, some in teacher assessments

Teacher assessment is horrendously flawed and should be taken with a huge pinch of salt. It’s affected by all sorts of things including social class, race, sex and the subconscious bias of the teacher. Exams are more objective (so long as marked anonymously).

So your quote must be outdated. They do say in the booklet (page 218) that the pass rate has improved by 13 percent since 1995

My extract was from a pdf created by an International School in Grenoble - a pro forma on the same page is dated 2013/14. Their figure of "just under 80%" ties in exactly with your "79% in a generation".

I would argue that this school - based in France, knows a lot more about the French education system than you do.

14.5/20 in Civic life, whatever it is

Vie Scolaire actually represents points for good behaviour in class/school, although it looks as though this might have been phased out in 2014/2015.

Your original claim that 79% of French students are educated to A level standard, grade C and above is a nonsense.

Clavinova,

www.frenchpropertysearch.com/pages/information/french-education-system/college/diplome-national-du-brevet/

Thank you for this example with transcript paper, it illustrates my point exactly.

In Maths, the child got 9/20 in the teacher assessment, but 30/40 in the exam. Pass.
In French, the child got 16.5/40 (40%) in the exam, but 19/20 in teacher assessment. Pass
In detail, French exam was 8.5/15 in essay writing, (57%).Pass.
But the problem is 7.5/25 in dictation. [could actually be mildly dyslexic...]
In addition, the child got:
10/20 in English
12/20 in Biology and geography
16/20 in Physics and Chemistry
10/20 in PE
20/20 in Arts
16/20 in Music
15.5/20 in Technology
16.5/20 in German
14.5/20 in Civic life, whatever it is
5 an extra credit for Technical Drawing

So this child seem to be gifted in Arts, but has clearly passed Maths and French individually and all of his subjects collectively. She looks to me like a well rounded and reasonably educated 15 years old. A six-form would judge her on her merits.

And there is no need to snub child's success by saying exam was easy.
Some DC / subjects do better in exams, some in teacher assessments. It is often discussed that continued assessments when used appropriately could be a good thing in this country.

Your 79% in a generation appears to be 61% - lost in translation!
cache.media.education.gouv.fr/file/RERS_2018/31/0/depp-2018-RERS-web_1007310.pdf
from www.education.gouv.fr/cid57096/reperes-et-references-statistiques.html

Not at all. The 79% is from state statistics booklet which you read, on page 222, line 3. On the right there is an explanation of methodology. It explains that those 79% is a figure in the modelled population, recalculated from the entry and pass rate of that year 2017 (88%), taking into account repeats. If every year the demographic split of ages/sex of who enters, the entry and pass rate were the same as in 2017, then If you take 100 people at random, 79 would have Bac. Something like this. That booklet is for 2017. Both in 2017 (page 2018 line 2) and in 2018 www.education.gouv.fr/cid132822/resultats-de-la-session-de-juin-du-baccalaureat-2018.html
the Bac pass rate in year group was also 90%-tish (88). So your quote must be outdated. They do say in the booklet (page 218) that the pass rate has improved by 13 percent since 1995.

Many do argue that Bac Pro is not a real bac (part Btech) and standards are going down and education is in crisis, like in every country, basically. And of course there is even higher degree of snobbery. Having taken a look at the lovely maths exam paper for the Beautician and the Literary bac it seems they reach a reasonable level of maths, which was my point. It is possible for a larger proportion of population to learn maths to at least GCSE level and succeed in their qualifications.

The student numbers in booklet also speak for themselves.
720700 students entered Brevet (page 216 line 1) . 732700 students entered Bac (page 218 line 1). These are comparable figures given variation in birth rate. There isn't a drop out from 15 to 18 years old exams, increase could be due to repeating. So I am not sure where the 39% drop out are.

Do they set in Primary school? I am not sure they set within the same secondary qualification. The comments about streaming in your quote refers to Bac, Literary vs STEM, vs Pro etc. Even with streaming they are all taught a reasonable level of maths (Beautician exam paper) and their final qualifications are not devalued. There is no lower ceiling for the grade they can obtain in different streams. Those with Bac Pro have not failed Level 3 qualifications and received some replacement Level 2 certificate of functional skills. They graduate validated and empowered, which is the main point.

I don't really want to go back over details of other countries because it is beside the point.

The problem imo is, 25% fail SATs and with the flightpath, they are not on track for grade 4 with an average rate of progress. If they are locked in low sets with diminished curriculum, those DC exit secondary school without the main Level 2 qualifications the secondary school is for. Children starting in Y7 in lower sets do not have sessions with councillors and parents to tell them they probably will have Level 1 qualifications or Functional skills...

To not lose the wood behind the tree, mastery and qualification in Maths could be improved for larger number of secondary school children. It is a good thing.

The broader point is regardless of the nuances and bickering around detail, 88% or 79% could leave school proud, uplifted and empowered.

and taking this into account they calculated that “in a generation”, meaning by year of birth, 79% pass the Bac

Your 79% in a generation appears to be 61% - lost in translation!

C i t é S c o l a i r e I n t e r n a t i o n a l e
4 place de Sfax B.P. 1570
38012 Grenoble Cedex 1 F R A N C E
telephone : 33 4 38 12 25 00 fax : 33 4 38 12 25 20
counselor: Gregg West [email protected]

"A brief explanation of the French National Education system...
French high schools prepare students for a battery of exams administered by the university system called the Baccalaureat or BAC.There are several versions of these exams. Just under 80% of students who take the exams pass them, but they represent only about 61% of their age group, because 39% have opted for lower qualifications following orientation with a counsellor, or have attained no qualification Among the 61% who get a BAC, just under half (28.5% of the age group) have studied for a degree which will allow them to enter professional life directly (vocational, technical and professional BACs), most often because they are not fully qualified for university level work. The other half of these BAC recipients (32.4% of the age group) have obtained a general BAC, far more difficult academically, in one of three branches: scientific, literary and economic/social studies. Over 80% of those who take this exam pass it due to prior streaming and selection. The exam includes separate tests, each several hours long, in every subject area studied (please see "academic program" below). Scores are multiplied by coefficients, then added and averaged to get the overall score which must be above 10 out of 20 to pass. (see "grading system" below) (for example, on the literary Bac, French scores are multiplied by 9, Philosophy scores by 7 and science scores only by 2. In contrast, on the scientific Bac, Math scores are multiplied by 7, each subject in science scores by 6 and French by 4.)"

The important difference is that British universities have second (the second second) and third class degrees. I am not sure they exist in France and elsewhere. You cannot pass to the second year there with an average below 13/20 if I am not mistaken

11/20 is a 2:2

www.brighton.ac.uk/international/study-with-us/your-country-info/france-equivalencies.aspx

Here 35% fail English and Maths GCSE

Is that 35% fail English and Maths GCSE or 35% fail English or Maths?

But you prove the point. It is possible for a child with 8/20=40% to pass because mediocre maths must be balanced by high scores in science, humanities, oral and written Language, plus MFL

I'll try.
In this example, the candidate has done well overall, but they only scored 40% in their externally marked French exam (UK students sit English of course). Their teacher assessment for Maths was below 50% - perhaps the Maths exam was an easy one that year? Their best subject appears to be Art.
www.frenchpropertysearch.com/pages/information/french-education-system/college/diplome-national-du-brevet/

UCAS equate the Brevet to 4 GCSEs at Grade C (this was prior to the recent GCSE reforms) - that wouldn't get you into a decent sixth form to study A levels in England. The Brevet is a Year 10 exam though.

cantkeepawayforever
Anyone would think that norm referencing is what stops everyone getting above a certain grade .
It's not like most people have been saying this for pages... and pages... and pages.
I admire you and noble for continuing to present rational and sensible perspectives in the face of repeated illogical, inaccurate and/or false assertions.

Noble's point about people never needing trig

My what now? I had a roofer once tell me at Parents evening how he used trig so that doesn’t sound like me.

FYI solving quadratics and trigonometry are on the Foundation paper, as is plotting functions.