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After school detentions and the law?

90 replies

BoooForYou · 31/10/2018 16:41

Hi long time poster but name changed
(LTB, cancel the cheque etc etc)

DD is year 7. Had a bit of an altercation before half term, silly really. All got given their maths test results and DD was a bit upset by hers (maths is her worst subject).
A lad in her class kept driving her mad to give her result over, she said no so he pinched her and told her to get a grip. DD, and no excuses for this at all, slapped him back.
I got a call at 2.55pm on the last day of term, apparently boy had written a statement backed up by another girl. Fair enough. DD not asked for her side though so could I ask and arrangement made for me to pop in on Monday after holiday.
DD explained the pinching and said she knew she shouldn't have slapped him. We did punish her for this (no tv, phone or net for 3 days, early bedtime too).
Relayed what happened on Monday and was told a minor punishment of missing a class to be in isolation would be given. Did say it was a bit OTT, she has never been in trouble at all before, but told school takes a firm line. I thought both her and the boy would be given same.
Was told I would be called with an update regards this punishment after she had spoken to DD and the other 2 pupils.
Heard nothing but thought school is busy so would hear in due course.
Our car is in the garage so I've been meeting her halfway. She texts on the way too from 3pm.
Waiting today and no texts. Started to worry by 3.05 so walked up towards school. Still not texts and no answer on phone.
Got to school by 3.15, member of staff who watches them leave even expressed concern as no clubs tonight.
Went into office to be told she is in isolation, where she has been all day until 3.30 (30 minutes after school).
No one around without an appointment to speak to but Secretary did say I am meant to be informed.
Finally she came over at 3.35 with one of the isolation staff who I calmly said I had no notification of any after school detention or that she was being isolated all day. Wad told "oh, my bad". Totally didn't see why I was worried!
DD now very upset, no longer wants to go to school and to make matters worse, homework due today wasn't handed in as they refused to allow her to hand it as she was in isolation so now, due to school rule, she will get another detention.
I am so angry by this. I get the need to punish, but surely they are legally required to inform me?
I want to raise it with Governors, DH says no, don't be that parent.
Where do we stand?

OP posts:
Cauliflowersqueeze · 03/11/2018 16:32

Mishappening you might think it’s wrong but it is in fact legal.

Personally I agree that parents should be informed but I respect the right of Headteachers to decide for their schools.

As a governor your role is not to “kick up more than a bit of a stink” with the Headteacher. It is to be a critical friend and to have a strategic overview of the aims and policies, not to “kick up stinks” about internal procedures.

Mishappening · 03/11/2018 15:07

It is quite simply wrong that a child should be detained after school without the parents being informed. Common sense, basic good manners and a safety issue.

I am a school governor and if this happened I would be kicking up more than a bit of a stink with the head.

Children have a deep sense of justice - for her explanation not to be sought or listened to; for the boy to have no punishment - these are just the sorts of things that put children off a school for good.

There is a difference between discipline and insensitive handling of difficult situations.

I think the school were wrong and I also think you are being remarkably patient! Is there a medal icon to be had!

BoooForYou · 03/11/2018 14:56

One of the women in the Exclusion area.
These women are not teachers, they are independent staff, they run the Exclusion Room along with a pupil chill out area. It's supposed to be a place of calm, for pupils to access help and advice when needed, as well as individual mentoring.
However DD said the lady who sat with them all day (DD and 2 older boys who she doesn't know) was really quite aggressive. It was her who despite watching like a prison guard all day reduced one of the boys to tears accusing him of cheating which I mentioned upthread.
DD had never encountered her before and says she hopes she never does again.
She did say she bumped into the oldest boy in there with her yesterday at lunch who said hello and asked her was she Ok now, he also asked what she got sent there for. When she told him, he said it was mean, gave her a Mars bar and told her she can find him anytime a boy starts on her.
I told her she should probably decline the kind offer, but it certainly cheered her up that an older one checked she was ok.

OP posts:
SuburbanRhonda · 03/11/2018 14:31

Sorry, who told her to “shut up”?

youarenotkiddingme · 03/11/2018 11:22

Sorry unequal punishment. She tired to give ds a harsher punishment than supply had given other boy. Despite supply not thinking ds should have got punished at all.

youarenotkiddingme · 03/11/2018 11:20

You're not at all in my eyes!

Been with similar with ds. He stabbed a boy in the arm with his pen. His teacher (who didn't actually appear to like him anyway!) tried to give him equal punishment to the other lad. She had not been in lesson. Supply teacher was there, witnessed it and put other lad in detention.

Why? Because ds had been sat at his desk working and other lad walked from his desk to ds and put him in a headlock. Ds couldn't get him off so stabbed him.

I simply wrote to HOY asking for policy regarding teachers intervening physically to support students being injured, policy re a teacher not present then punishing based on their interpretation of events from supply email and policy that says students who react to physical violence will get a greater punishment.

I just pointed out by law teachers are protected to act reasonably and proportionately where necessary to any violence from pupils and they can't morally (at least!) deny the pupils the same right!

I know your DD situation is slightly different as ds was fighting off this lad. But the principle still stands and this is why o agree with your stance.

BoooForYou · 03/11/2018 10:16

Thanks @youarenotkiddingme, I'm desperate to avoid coming across as the dreaded "My kid is innoccent" mum! Straight off the bat I agreed that if it appeared she had hit him, especially unprovoked, then detention all the way and we revoked her screen time at home.
It has left her feeling like she can't speak up or stick up for herself. I did explain telling the teacher would've been the better option, apparently the teacher wasn't in the room and I think there's an element of them not gelling anyway (DD says she shouts a lot, isn't very approachable and has had a few in tears). Not that that excuses her reaction.
I've made a formal complaint and it's being investigated so until then, all we can do is reassure DD that it will be sorted. She's just upset it will mean Behaviour Points and be on her record now.

OP posts:
youarenotkiddingme · 03/11/2018 09:05

You need to make this an official complaint.

You are right. They haven't followed the behaviour plan and left an 11yo feeling anxious and fearful of being bullied after already being physically hurt.

Ok, she did wrong by slapping him. No one is denying that and neither are you. But kids, especially girls, need to feel they have a right to defend themselves and be heard. Nothing is ever black or white.

I've also been involved in situations where schools deal with black and white because they are fearful of making a judgement in the grey area as there's always some parent who complains about this. "Where's the witnesses" etc.

However they haven't even gone black and white here. They have half the information. They've taken action on half the information.

My betting is this is because the boys parents went in all huffy because he'd been slapped. They probably got in there first and school is trying to stop them escalating to protect their reputation.

BoooForYou · 03/11/2018 08:09

Sorry there seems to be some mistake here. He has not at any stage been punished. DD was never, and has still never, been given the opportunity to give her side. I was told she would be in an initial meeting on Monday, but this was not sought (hence the "my bad" comment from the woman I had the meeting with), and the punishment received by DD was based on his statement and the statement of another who also hit her. At first before half term I was told they had 5 statements all the same, now it's 2 but they "differ". Yet no one, at any time, has asked DD and when she tried to speak up through tears on Wednesday she was told to shut up.
I want to reiterate that I do, 100%, back the school on discipline. If she messes up, sure, she needs to be shown this isn't OK.
However, I fail to see the point of advertising a Behaviour policy with stages dependent on previous behaviour and stating quite clearly all sides are sought before a decision is made, if they then do not follow through with asking DD (or anyone else who isn't mates with this boy and girl) and going straight to the 3rd highest punishment step when she hasn't had so much as a detention or verbal warning (as there have been no other incidents at all).
I was welcoming of advice from the Governor purely because we have never experienced issues like this before, not to mention detentions. I'm not saying she never had the odd blip at Primary for which she was told off (but this was more not doing homework or being a little silly with friends) but as a first time secondary mum it's all new. I don't think she was out of order as she was explaining that the system was very effective but has been irrevocably damaged to the detriment of students like my daughter by a Head teacher who seems to want to run the school with an iron fist but when things go wrong as they have here, locks herself in school and refuses to discuss without it being done officially.
The last thing I wanted was an official complaint, or investigations. I just want to feel that my daughter is safe and supported and dealt with fairly like every other child, not that they decide to silence her, leave her open to further bullying, and act like she's known as trouble as she's not.
I also don't see how it helps to instill discipline which results in 5 periods of education being missed entirely. She wasn't given any work to do, and as all her homework was on the PC in the schools online system, she couldn't do that either. She sat, from 8.45am to 3.30pm, on a chair, and did nothing. She missed core subjects such as English and Science, as well as history and IT. How is that helpful? Surely they could have collected work for her? But then I feel it further suggests that this was rushed and last minute, hence why I wasn't, as is school protocol, given any notification at all.
I hope that clears that up.

OP posts:
Cauliflowersqueeze · 02/11/2018 19:57

That’s exactly how kids operate - they don’t bother annoying kids who don’t react - it’s boring.

If you have a firework, you light it!

They should both have been in trouble but the OP doesn’t know the other boy wasn’t and schools don’t discuss other children’s sanctions with other parents.

SnuggyBuggy · 02/11/2018 19:46

What would worry me about this system is that it could encourage bullies to goad people into a reaction

Cauliflowersqueeze · 02/11/2018 19:38

A slap would be an internal isolation at my school.

Cauliflowersqueeze · 02/11/2018 19:37

Schools don’t have to report internal exclusions to governors. Or anyone.

Only FTEs and PEXs.

Cauliflowersqueeze · 02/11/2018 19:36

That governor is appalling and should not be meddling in internal affairs like that.

The school should have let you know, even though it’s not required.

You don’t know that the boy who pinched her wasnt in trouble and it’s not your business to know.

If you want to raise a query with the school then by all means do so, but I strongly feel this should be done privately and without your daughter knowing (or the gossipy governor).

BubblesBuddy · 02/11/2018 15:04

OP. Governors should receive data on the operation of the Behaviour Policy as a matter of report every term. They must know how many exclusions there are: permanent, fixed term or internal. If they don’t know, they have no idea how well, or not, the policy is working. Behaviour policies are about reinforcing good behaviour in school. Punishments and sanctions are part of the policy as well as rewards. An exclusion policy is usually a separate document.

Governors should never duscuss individual children. They are not parental delegates on the Governing Body. However I can see you need support in this situation so if the school reports exclusions accurately, and there has been an increase in their use, Governors can ask questions as to the effectiveness of the policy. That is their role. It’s not bringing parental complaints to the Governing Body.

Thesnobbymiddleclassone · 02/11/2018 14:13

The school should have let you know. After the final bell for the day, I personally don't think they have any right to do things with your child without letting you know.

Also walking home from school, parents need to know if their child is due to be late as that could be the difference between them panicking that they're in some sort of trouble or needing help.

MaisyPops · 02/11/2018 13:58

It sounds like the school should have investigated the original incident better. The boy should have also been sanctioned.

As for the isolation not being used effectively, a situation where a student had slapped another is the sort of situation that would have meant isolation in most schools.

I'm in agreement with the PP who expresses concerns about the governor. I think they're being quite unprofessional in their discussions with the OP. It sounds like the governor is quite happy to shit stir and fan the flames of any reservations parents may have about the new head in my opinion.

SnuggyBuggy · 02/11/2018 13:50

I would try to really encourage her in her schoolwork even if she doesn't have support from all her teachers. I hope things improve for her

BoooForYou · 02/11/2018 11:01

Yes that's my (and DDs) worry that he's probably going to find it hilarious, the little sod.
It is so out of character for her, she has a younger brother who has gotten her used to annoying boys(!) and she knows she really didn't handle it the correct way. I think it was last lesson, at the end of a very full on first half term, in a subject she really struggles in, and she did just lash out without thinking. The first thing she said on getting in the car afterwards was she made a mistake, she had hit someone, she knew she would have to deal with it and she did have a punishment at home which she didn't argue with.
Shes a good kid, it makes me laugh that the same week as this has happened with the whole exclusion thing and after school too, her science teacher sent us an email saying how lovely she is and how she works hard and is a pleasure to teach.
I think it's achieved what it sets out to as she doesn't ever want to be subject to the in school exclusion again, but she also said she doesn't think it was fair as they didn't ask why she did it. She also said now she thinks all the teachers will think she's badly behaved.
We already had the good half term report but not enough Achievement Points to go on a special off site treat, or any postcard home saying she is doing well. She even popped in with me when I picked DS up from Primary and she asked the Deputy Head "was I really naughty here cos the school think I am" which was so sad.
It's knocked her, and I really hope they get that and do everything to change that perception.

OP posts:
PacificOpal · 02/11/2018 09:00

The boy must be feeling quite smug right now that he goaded her and pinched her and got away scot-free with it while she spent the day in isolation for retaliating.

youarenotkiddingme · 02/11/2018 08:27

Awwww bless your DD. It's horrible when you react totally out of character for yourself, feel bad for it and then on top of it feel unlistened too and stuck in a negative spiral of trouble.

As for detentions I agree with you. I don't think it's acceptable at all to detain a child and not even have to explain to parents why. It gives schools too much power to act unfairly towards pupils. Most don't. But there are an increasing number of schools taking zero intolerance where pupils are punished for being human.

Your DD shouldn't have slapped him. But it was a reaction rather than a deliberate action and the poor handing has left her feeling anxious. You are absolutely right to be 'that parent' in this case.

SnuggyBuggy · 02/11/2018 08:13

The teachers sound pretty crap. They should at least get a story from both sides before barrelling in with punishment

BoooForYou · 02/11/2018 08:05

That's the thing, it's not really changed, it's just not being followed to what it was set up to do.
She said as a result of my speaking to her, she would be raising a question at their next meeting, not specifically naming my DD but asking for the recent data on in school exclusion use and what this was used for.
I think, obviously I don't know the politics and gossip as we've been there for 5 minutes, it seems there is divisions, but I think as well it takes a while for a Heads style to bed in, especially when she replaced a very popular Head who made popular changes. It's often brought up amongst older parents that they miss the openness of the school, but that's nothing new.
I wasn't, fwiw bothered on the gossip, I just wanted advice for what is best for DD in the longer-term

OP posts:
BubblesBuddy · 02/11/2018 00:35

Your tame parent Governor is atrocious! What a gossip! She’s not undertaking her role effectively by talking to you like this. She does not understand her role either and it’s extremely worrying that she’s the Safeguarding lead! I bet the Head isn’t keen on that.

Additionally, the behaviour policy (which includes internal exclusions) is agreed by the Governors. It’s monitored by the Governors regarding its effectiveness. She needs to stop blaming the Head and start looking at how the Governors influence the ethos of the school. It’s her job to do that. She should also be aware that if the Head has unilaterally changed the Behaviour Policy, the Governors need to approve any changes.

BoooForYou · 01/11/2018 21:04

The teacher has already moved DD so he won't be able to pinch her as easily in the class.
She said when she was taken over to the exclusion room, she tried to tell the head of Year and then the women running the room that she had been pinched but was told to be quiet. She said the women in there were horrible, at one point a boy in there had got his maths homework out and done it- bar their pencil cases and books, their phones and belongings are placed in a locked cupboard all day, and when he was told to show one of the staff, she shouted that he was a cheat, and must have a hidden calculator. DD said it really frightened her, and the boy cried and was then told off for this too. I get the whole deterrent angle, it's no doubt supposed to instill better behaviour, however I think there's a fine line between school punishment and unnecessary levels of nastiness. The whole being walked over in silence to get lunch or go to the loo is ridiculous!
It seems the boy has received no punishment at all. Now DD has said she worries he knows he can do what he likes, she can't stick up for herself, or she will be in huge trouble.
I've raised it with the school though, and said the whole situation has been managed appallingly, outside of their own policy, and totally disproportionately. They have, down to their complaints procedure, two weeks to respond.
The sad thing is, on talking to the governor, the in school exclusion was thought up by the previous head. It was in no way meant to be used as it has been, more it was to do that days work and be spoken to, calmly, about their choices. It was a last chance thing though. She did say the current head has, in the year she's been in the role, undone a lot of good stuff put in place, parents aren't permitted on school grounds without an appointment, you can't speak to anyone accept by email, there is one open evening for parent teacher conferences so you're lucky if you can grab 1 minute with a teacher, and she has this whole procedure now for complaints when previously, you could informally chat to governors and then speak to the head with them. I got the impression she wasn't a fan at all. They do try and keep you as far from staff as possible, the whole child missing but management won't speak to me without an appointment really shocked me.

OP posts:
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