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Original poster

After school detentions and the law?

90 replies

BoooForYou · 31/10/2018 16:41

Hi long time poster but name changed
(LTB, cancel the cheque etc etc)

DD is year 7. Had a bit of an altercation before half term, silly really. All got given their maths test results and DD was a bit upset by hers (maths is her worst subject).
A lad in her class kept driving her mad to give her result over, she said no so he pinched her and told her to get a grip. DD, and no excuses for this at all, slapped him back.
I got a call at 2.55pm on the last day of term, apparently boy had written a statement backed up by another girl. Fair enough. DD not asked for her side though so could I ask and arrangement made for me to pop in on Monday after holiday.
DD explained the pinching and said she knew she shouldn't have slapped him. We did punish her for this (no tv, phone or net for 3 days, early bedtime too).
Relayed what happened on Monday and was told a minor punishment of missing a class to be in isolation would be given. Did say it was a bit OTT, she has never been in trouble at all before, but told school takes a firm line. I thought both her and the boy would be given same.
Was told I would be called with an update regards this punishment after she had spoken to DD and the other 2 pupils.
Heard nothing but thought school is busy so would hear in due course.
Our car is in the garage so I've been meeting her halfway. She texts on the way too from 3pm.
Waiting today and no texts. Started to worry by 3.05 so walked up towards school. Still not texts and no answer on phone.
Got to school by 3.15, member of staff who watches them leave even expressed concern as no clubs tonight.
Went into office to be told she is in isolation, where she has been all day until 3.30 (30 minutes after school).
No one around without an appointment to speak to but Secretary did say I am meant to be informed.
Finally she came over at 3.35 with one of the isolation staff who I calmly said I had no notification of any after school detention or that she was being isolated all day. Wad told "oh, my bad". Totally didn't see why I was worried!
DD now very upset, no longer wants to go to school and to make matters worse, homework due today wasn't handed in as they refused to allow her to hand it as she was in isolation so now, due to school rule, she will get another detention.
I am so angry by this. I get the need to punish, but surely they are legally required to inform me?
I want to raise it with Governors, DH says no, don't be that parent.
Where do we stand?

OP posts:
Original poster
BoooForYou · 04/11/2018 18:59

Don't worry, it is a Formal Complaint. It had to be as that's how they deal with stuff like this apparently.
I would like to see the boy get in trouble, I'm just anticipating they may not, DD has been moved away from him already at my request. She said she is finding the lesson so hard and too fast paced and she's getting behind, she's not one to stay in a group if she can't hack it, she was in a situation before where a teacher piled maths work on her and she got so far behind it made her withdraw and lose confidence and we've always told both the DC there's no shame in admitting you find things tough. She has asked me to put forward going down a group where the teaching is slower and it's a smaller group too so she would have more chance of getting help if she gets stuck.
I will also be telling them straight that the attitude of the woman in the Exclusion Room and the one who said my bad are appalling, luckily I've emailed the tutors whose classes she missed and they said she's not missed too much and as long as she has done the homework she should be fine, but it's still not ideal and it is something I flagged in my email complaint.
I will update when I know more, I really hope this is a one off.

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IWannaSeeHowItEnds · 04/11/2018 17:52

It's not too late for the boy to be punished fot his part in this - it's very important that he is. If the school now are made aware of information that they previously didn't bother to find out, they must put this right by not allowing this child to get off scot free.
I would be making a formal complaint. It's not about being that parent, it's about advocating for your child, because if you don't do it, what does that say to her?
Sometimes with schools you have to make it clear that you are watching how they behave and will hold them to account. Many schools are fab and you can trust them to do things properly, but based on ehat you have seen here, your dd's school isn't one of thrm.
I'd certainly be mrntioning yhr bullying behaviour of the isolation supervisors along eith the fact thst your child was denied a whole day of education, which goes against everything schools are supposed to be about.

Original poster
BoooForYou · 04/11/2018 17:33

Thanks for the advice @youarenotkiddingme
When I emailed, I kept it to bullet points, one set why did this happen and the other set what are you going to do to make sure it doesn't happen again. I said in one of the points I didn't disagree that her reaction was punishable but I asked them to explain the decision to go straight to the second most severe punishment.
I hope it does work in my favour that when I had the meeting on the Monday with the "my bad" woman, I agreed that it went without saying she would face some level of punishment but she said it would be in line with their policy.
I don't want to get to a point with them where we can't work together again and they don't see me as approachable, however, I will expect some answers and I will ask them to email the result- I like that idea so thank you.

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Holidayshopping · 04/11/2018 15:49

Your poor DD-I’m not surprised you’re cross. This sounds like it has been very badly handled by the school

youarenotkiddingme · 04/11/2018 15:39

The best thing is these situations isn't to argue black and white with them but ask them simply "what are you going to do as a school to repair the damage you've caused in DD confidence." "How are you going to work with ds to reassure her you made a mistake by not investigating and finding out she was assaulted first and unfairly punished based on incorrect information".

Don't ever waiver on the fact they dealt with this unequally. Then email after to confirm all that was said.

I also find never mentioning the punishment was incorrect but rather "why wasn't I informed as per your behaviour policy" etc is the best way.

Even ds amazing school who are totally fair usually do not back down on their decision to punish. They will admit admin errors though.

Original poster
BoooForYou · 04/11/2018 09:26

Yes she's 11, and until this week I've driven her in (schools a good 30 minute walk), but the car has finally clapped out. Luckily DS school has a different week off but from tomorrow she will be walking there and back without me walking part way (our neighbours daughter is year 9 and has kindly offered to buddy up to walk with her). I can only imagine the state I would've been in waiting for her at home (although I'm aware that sounds daft as some kids are already out and about on their own).
It's probably too late now for the boy to be punished, I'm anticipating them saying that as this happened before half term so a fortnight odd ago.
I would've fully supported a lunchtime detention, I had already said as much. It just felt so underhanded.
I do try and be measured and supportive, my mum was a loon and would rant at my school over nothing which made my life miserable at school. I have however told them I am unimpressed by this as she's been there half a term and already I felt I had no choice but to complain. There will be a meeting this week according to the Head so I shall see what they say but they have a lot of ground to make up. DH is going to come along if he can too as he was livid!
I'm loathe to move her though but only because she has got some great teachers and a lovely group of mates. It would be crap in the long run to pull her out and I don't think she should miss out when it's the school who have screwed up.

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sashh · 04/11/2018 09:14

I'd be asking the school why they have such a sexist policy in place. A boy assaults a girl but she is punished for defending herself?

This is one of those things I wouldn't care about becomeing 'that' parent.

jackny · 04/11/2018 09:08

I think the school sounds really over the top in its management of behaviour. Your daughter has only just started secondary school and getting used to a new environment. The school should have spoken with both children about the original incident and the boy should have been dealt with too. What on earth did the school think would be gained by keeping a young girl in isolation all day and after school detention. No wonder your DD wants to change school - in her shoes I would too! When I was at secondary school in the 80’s her actions and the fact that it was a first offence would have meant lunchtime detention. The boy would have got a similar punishment. I am staggered that the school didn’t ring you to let you know about the after school detention. Your Dd is only 11/ 12 and may have only just started to make her own way to school. As a parent, a child being late home is worrying. At times I really think schools forgot that they are there to provide parents and the local community a service.

rupertpenryswife · 04/11/2018 08:48

boo you come across as very balanced and not 'one of those parents* in the circumstances, I feel awful for your dd she must have felt so isolated. The punishment does seem very heavy handed especially as the boy appeared to have got away with it.

Not sure what this teaches our children about regarding honesty. I hope you will update us and, your dd comes through this ok it sounds like she is well supported, my dd starts secondary next year and is scared of this sort of thing I stupidly reassured her that you have to be pretty naughty to get an exclusion 😳 . I also struggle to believe that legally a school can keep a child without informing a parent what a ridiculous and unsafe policy. I really hope my dd's secondary has better policy's than this. Well done for supporting the school but, it really should work both ways.

Original poster
BoooForYou · 04/11/2018 08:40

@Aventurine you're not the first to say that, her best friend (he's a lovely little chap) called her and I spoke to his mum who said she was cross on our behalf, not least because the circumstances are ridiculous but also as her boy was upset not to be with her at lunchtime as it unsettled him (he has aspergers so not being able to sit as usual and draw together upset him).
And yes, tutor is lovely, DD is arty anyway so it's her dream environment. She's only just joined too, is very young and switched on. They keep the same one throughout school so it's good to have someone I know will support her who she would talk to if she needed to and who I can chat with too.

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Aventurine · 04/11/2018 08:24

I'm annoyed the boy got away with it and it's not even my kid!
The FT sounds lovely

Original poster
BoooForYou · 04/11/2018 08:21

I think with DD, it's very lucky that she has a very good group of friends (her phone went crackers with them all texting her). Also with the exception of her maths teacher, she likes her other tutors and the feeling seems to be mutual as they sang her praises in her half term report. Her form tutor is also exceptionally supportive of her form too, they all get to school half hour early at least and hang out in their tutor room in the art block with her and they know they can chat to her. It's quite sweet actually as they grab a hot chocolate and a breakfast roll and chat until 8.30 together and it's certainly helped the settling in process.
I copied her in on the complaint and she immediately emailed apologising saying she felt awful as she hadn't been told either, she said she would be working hard to bolster DD back up again.
I think now at this point, DD knows I'm cross and dealing with it, and actually, she is cross too, rather that than how she was Thursday. I have said though she can't now give up, if anything she needs to keep on with her work and prove anyone else wrong.
I hope actually from this that the Head realises that the behaviour policy is there for a reason, she may see us as easy picking but she's very much mistaken! I've worked hard to make sure both my DC have and show respect. I will be pushing for this to be removed from her record or at the least a notification added.

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JohnMcCainsDeathStare · 03/11/2018 22:11

I only hope this starts getting resolved by Monday - It might also be worth looking at other schools - I suspect you won't be alone on this.
It seems that Ms Iron Fist is Ms Brittle Fist and she is staking her territory via low hanging fruit as it were - pick on those whom she doesn't think will challenge her.

I'm watching this thread with interest since my oldest DS has ASD and believes strongly in rules and tries his best. However, rules that have no rational basis or are enforced in an erratic fashion which would make him vulnerable to exactly the kind of nonsense your daughter is enduring.

It sucks but I wonder if staff morale is circling the drain - how did this school appear when you first looked around?

BubblesBuddy · 03/11/2018 21:47

Cauliflower: The role of a governor is to challenge and support the school. Governors are expected to know if the school behaviour policy is working and fit for purpose. They don’t write it but must know if it’s effective. Therefore all data relating to the effectiveness and use of the policy is absolutely something Governors should know. If should be part of the Heads report to Governors and ideally an individual governor will monitor it. Ofsted will be looking at behaviour and it’s management and the Governors cannot say they don’t know how the policy operates or how effective, or otherwise, it is. If it’s not effective they should expect something to be done about it. It can be part of the Head’s Performance management for example.

Critical friend is not current terminology. Governors are not critical and they are not friends. They must challenge and support via the appropriate routes and methods. Not challenging the effectiveness of a behaviour policy is neglecting their duties.

SnuggyBuggy · 03/11/2018 18:49

Way to alienate a nice normal pupil. I mean hopefully with your support she won't go off the rails but it will be no thanks to being treated like shit by the teachers.

Original poster
BoooForYou · 03/11/2018 18:46

@HenryInTheTunnel- DD didn't know either. She went to her form room for registration, Form tutor didn't know either, she was just going into her first lesson and her head of Year turned up.
Head of Year then told her off for not going straight to, as she termed it to DD "IER" .
She apparently didn't find it concerning that not only did DD not know what IER was or where it took place, she voiced that she had no clue why she was meant to be there. Head of Year simply told her not to lie, as "your Mum has been emailed".
DD knew if I had of known I would have told her, but both the Head of Year and the staff told her to either stop lying, quieter down and then shut up.
It's cruel.

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SnuggyBuggy · 03/11/2018 17:35

I mean I got the school bus and mobiles were banned. It would have been very irresponsible for the school to keep me behind the same day without informing my parents.

HenryInTheTunnel · 03/11/2018 17:30

Where i work we give 24 hours' notice but it's the child's responsibility to inform their parent, not ours. Sometimes if it's a Friday, we'll ring and see if we can keep them same day just to get it over with but it's too much of a committment to do it for every detention.

Original poster
BoooForYou · 03/11/2018 17:26

I don't think she's making a song and dance. She went in Friday, she was just upset Thursday.
I have treated them as separate issues as well.
Fwiw and I feel I have to say it again, I have no issue with discipline in schools. I just feel this was OTT for a 1st offence, and the policy backs this up. The added one sided enquiry adds to that, coupled with the boy and girl also not being punished.
Agree with poster who said the my bad comment was dismissive. It just felt so obnoxious!

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Cauliflowersqueeze · 03/11/2018 17:23

I agree. I think they should give at least 24 hours’ notice. It’s the polite thing to do.

The government made out like this was a brilliant way to give schools power - but it’s really not, in my opinion.

SnuggyBuggy · 03/11/2018 17:14

I think the law is wrong in this regard

MaruMaru · 03/11/2018 17:05

Agree school should have told you in advance, even if not legally required. Schools like to talk about partnership with parents- here is an example of where that should come into play, even if they are not legally obliged to notify you.
And the "my bad" is irritating and dismissive.
But your daughter is upset about her punishment. Not about you not being notified. They are separate issues.
The punishment itself isn't out of order and she should accept it without making a song and dance about leaving school.

Cauliflowersqueeze · 03/11/2018 16:56

It would be for the Headteacher and senior leadership team to decide the procedures.

Mishappening · 03/11/2018 16:49

I do indeed understand that it is technically legal - I did not dispute its legality but think it is quite simply wrong.

Our head would never dream of allowing this in school; and if he did I would indeed make the appropriate noises - and I know that I would be supported by the rest of the governing body. Being a critical friend is a tightrope walk that the government has never been able to define - but I would be being very critical indeed if a parent is not informed that their child would not be coming home at the usual time.

Original poster
BoooForYou · 03/11/2018 16:44

I get that legally they did nothing wrong although I'm quite surprised by that, as you said it would've been courteous to inform me. I'm not unapproachable.
I was worried sick, and of course in the long run she was in school, for 20 minutes I didn't know that. It was entirely out of character, and lots of scenarios, none of them great, went through my head.
DH and I have however decided that we do need to help her grow indendence, she's never even been to stay at a friend's overnight, or walked to our local shop. It's never been intentional but I think it's made us aware that we are close to a time when she will want to go off with her mates.
All that being said, it would have been a very quick phone call, one which I know others have had.
I will have to ask whether they meant to phone and either forgot, or it was a conscious decision after the meeting I had had where I said I had no issue with a punishment, just as long as all sides had been given. They knew that hadn't happened.

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