Controversial Behaviour Policy changes

The problem is that there is a sizeable subset of students who come into schools without the premise of default respect ingrained in them - for a variety of reasons
Like parents suggesting they don't have to behave or have manners unless they like the teacher.

There is a basic level of not negotiable respect.

Yes, I agree with that. The default position in the classroom should be that the teacher is respected. That respect can be lost through incompetence and injustice, however - hence 'strict but fair'.

The problem is that there is a sizeable subset of students who come into schools without the premise of default respect ingrained in them - for a variety of reasons. I don't think there is an easy way to deal with that. I do know that petty rules around smiling in class aren't going to engage those pupils. What they will do is alienate the others.

If you are a teacher without respect for your pupils, you are in the wrong profession. Does that really need saying?!

you know that mutual respect means that the kids have to respect you too? And that is, IME increasingly difficult. And no, my school isn’t one of these super-strict schools so you can’t blame the school.

There is a basic level of not negotiable respect.

If I walk into a room of 33 students I've never met before, I expect basic behaviour standards from the second I walk in. I treat students with respect and am polite, but students being quiet when I'm explaining a task is a basic requirement, not some optional extra once they've decided they think I'm alright and worth listening to. Same for doing work. I'm not a believer in the view that students only need to work if they happen to like the teacher.

Then there is the respect you earn. That respect emerges out of getting to know your pupils, going the extra mile, the times you support them through bad times, the respect that comes from students rating you as a subject specialists, from seeing you tackle bullying etc. That level of respect comes with time.

A supply teacher should be able to walk into a school, expect students to behave and be able to apply the behaviour policy.

I think it's bizarre anyone would suggest that basic manners from students is somehow a negotiable trait based on whether they like someone.

"Kids need to behave even if teachers haven’t had the time or ability to cultivate mutual respect with each and every individual."

If you are a teacher without respect for your pupils, you are in the wrong profession. Does that really need saying?! (I was a teacher, in case that isn't clear).

Mutual respect isn't some fluffy extra in teaching. A class without respect for the teacher will be an unmanageable class. Sanctions ultimately only work if kids give a shit. If they don't, then you sure as eggs won't reach them with multiple detentions. In an ideal world maybe kids would behave even for the teachers who think they are depraved savages and treat them accordingly. In reality, with no respect, you get kickback. I was an exceptionally meek and respectful pupil. The one teacher i recall who treated us with total contempt drew my passive-agressive resistance in return. My only detention the whole of secondary school was from him!

I'm glad it works for her, flicka. But I hope there's decent alternative provision for the kids it doesn't work for.

My DD2 can't wait to get into 6th form - because no uniform.

Yes, Pointythings, obviously it would be lovely. I am not arguing. Just would have completely agreed wholeheartedly with you before I met my daughter! She likes structure, she hates the days when you get to wear you own clothes, one of the reasons she wants to stay at this school is because you wear uniform in the sixth form. She finds the silly rules reassuring.

I agree noble.
Behaviour management isn't (and shouldn't be) a personality competition.
Any member of staff should be able to walk into a class and be able to teach without people messing on because they don't know the teacher.
Basic behaviours for learning are not negotiable.

But the fact remains that the most effective discipline method is cultivating mutual respect with students.

Kids need to behave even if teachers haven’t had the time or ability to cultivate mutual respect with each and every individual.

I have no problem with detentions whatsoever. Our school issues detentions for homework not done after Yr 8. No second chances. I consider that a silly rule, but on the other hand keeping track of how many times there has been missed homework would be an administrative nightmare so if you're going to enforce homework, best keep it simple. DD1 was caught out once, she shrugged her shoulders and sucked it up.

Detentions for opening your mouth, smiling in corridors, moving at lunch - I am not on board with those.

Discipline is managing an orchestra not being a sergeant major, to paraphrase AS Neill!

It's not about being an amazingly charismatic teen whisperer, and I certainly didn't say it was easy or simple. For sure, sanctions are sometimes needed, it'd be a rare school that managed without them entirely. But the fact remains that the most effective discipline method is cultivating mutual respect with students. I saw it in my own school days, and over the next 20 years in education of one kind or another. Systems that work on fear rather than respect are brittle and insecure. If as a school you are using up energy on how accurately ties are tied, for eg, that suggests to me both that you have the wrong priorities, and that you are poor disciplinarians.

If the school system required teachers to have a magic personality to maintain control then the education system would collapse, because there would be barely any teachers left.

People want teachers to have good subject knowledge, be able to transmit difficult ideas in a way that children can understand, be hardworking professionals, form good relationships with classes and their parents AND be amazingly charismatic teen-whisperers. It’s too much.

It's not as simple as that though frog.
Behaviour management is complex.

I rarely raise my voice, but do have a firm tone that I use. I rarely give detentions, but did when I started the school. Consistency is key on sanctions. I built a reputation for being strict and fair so now I rarely have to sanction because students know the score. That took time to establish.

It's not sanctions or none, nor is it draconian rulea vs sit and talk it out with no clear boundaries. It's a complex balancing act.

It's possible to enforce discipline with no silly rules. I once had an amazing English teacher who never once raised his voice to anyone, or to my knowledge ever issued a detention. His classes were the most respectful, peaceful place, it just seemed inconceivable to anyone to play up. Same class, different teacher and it was carnage and chaos. Only poor disciplinarians constantly shout and punish and use fear to enforce compliance. Good ones cultivate mutual respect.

You’ll notice that article was in 2003 and detentions haven’t been banned in English schools, in fact it’s clearly stated that schools have the legal right to issue detentions and parents do not have the right to overrule this.

Fantastic news on the movement break card, by the way. That’ll make a real difference to your DS. :)

No wonder British children are meant to be the unhappiest in the world. Some of these kids will be just 11.

flicka but wouldn't it be nice to have a school that manages discipline and doesn't have endless silly rules? It is perfectly possible. The endless silly rules may be great for your DD, but they will be very, very difficult for many other good children.

pointythings Her last school really could not enforce discipline and it was huge school. She was fine socially but she found the lessons horrible. Lots of shouting from teachers and lots of disruptive students.

I agree that school is a preparation for adult life and there will be times when life is loud and chaotic, but school is a unique situation in that for the rest of your adult life, you do have a certain amount of choice about what works best for you. Some people thrive in offices, some self-employed, some on the go etc.

I would never go to Disneyworld because it is my idea of Hell, but my daughter's old school was her equivalent of that.

I really am not big on rules. I am the softest parent going. But my daughter is reasonably well behaved. Not the hardest working but good, doesn't break rules. And she really suffered because the teachers had no control.

Her new school has endless silly rules and really strict uniform and she loves it. I have an appeal on Wednesday to get youngest daughter in there.

Seneca I am with you on no ties. I am one of the 'please no uniform' brigade, but that isn't what the thread is about.

My DD2 is one of those who doesn't do well with constant tracking - fortunately she isn't required to do that. She just gets her head down and works.

Hooray for clip on ties!

Or no ties.

youarenotkiddingme makes a good point about different learning styles. We were talking about this at work just yesterday. I am one of those people who actually concentrates and learns better if I'm not looking at the speaker. Of course, I do so periodically, but there is no way that I could sit through a presentation of any length and get much out of it if I was expected to stare at the speaker the whole time.