Controversial Behaviour Policy changes

pointythings
I know. Absolutely awful.
The thing that made me really cross was how many children had their education repeatedly disrupted because children like him have been told they are beyond rules and teachers should be begging and travelling to engage them and that they can kick off if they don't like something.

It doesn't even have to be assault. I've seen lessons disrupted because a teacher has made a reasonable and polite request regarding uniform or taking coats off in the classroom. They were met with shouting and verbal abuse and 'eh norrr. I don't think so. What IS your problem. Fucksake.' Then mum turns up backing their child saying 'it's the teacher's fault. If they hadn't told them to tuck their shirt in, remove their cap, take headphones out etc then none of this would have happened. I don't see how you can put my child in isolation JUST FOR WEARING A HOODY.' and then more nonsense about how their DC doesn't like the teacher, teacher can't teach, maybe if the teacher didn't expect their child to follow simple instructions then their child would behave (and other nonsense to the effect of 'my child only has to behave if they feel like it and I will back them 100%').

The idea that basic respect, behaviour for learning an manners are based on whether a teacher has successfully played entertainer to earn brownie points from a group of kids is a slippery slope and one that ruins education for the vast majority of children who want to learn.

But sometimes kids kick off for no reason. It’s not always the teachers fault.

I’ve been teaching 20 years or more and there is always some kid who will misbehave more for me ( or another teacher) . There’s no reason to it, it’s just sometimes a clash of personality.

Maisy that's appalling!

I don't think that childrenshouldn'tbehave until their teacher respects them - I'm saying that is the reality of the situation, whether you like it or not.
That's not the reality in many schools.
Schools that have a decent behaviour policy that's clear and consistent don't have staff on the back foot from day one because students are wrongly of the view that the teacher should prove themselves and get them on side.

Students try to suss staff out and will push it a bit but in schools with a positive climate for learning polite requests and a few lunch detentions are all that's required to prove you don't deal with nonsense. Students (certainly at my school) respect the staff who have discipline because they know they are the members of staff who will help them learn instead of doing pointless football or Pokemon activities to try and negotiate with the 3 children who like to disrupt every lesson.

One time I was assaulted by a student. Home tried to argue it was my fault because I hadn't engaged him or got him on side. To be honest, I was more bothered about the routine verbal abuse to staff and students and the routine threats to staff and students so funnily enough I was working my arse off trying to keep other children safe. But sure, mum argued that I was to blame. Apparently he doesn't like it when people tell him what to do! So I was blamed for being assaulted by a 14 year old boy because his mother felt I should have proven myself to him.
Fuck no. Thankfully SLT agreed with me.

If a kid is racking up detentions from the same teacher then FGS tell them to behave.

I agree with this, as long as the teacher is reasonable. There are cases where the teacher is not - my DD1 had one like that. She was constantly being pulled up for things she had not done/said, whilst other pupils could practically riot and get away with it. DD1 has always been quiet and well behaved. I told her to have a word with her form tutor, who went to the Head of Department. Head of Department quietly observed a lesson without warning - and then quietly had a word with said teacher. Who promptly stopped picking on DD1. Not all teachers always get it right.

The majority do, though.

If a kid has been bunking off school for months, do you think putting them in internal isolation for having their tie done up wrong is going to re-engage them with education?

Point to where on this thread anyone has said this is reasonable .

I don’t teach in a super-strict school. I’m not in favour of the kids not being allowed out of their seats at lunch or being sanctioned for glancing out of the window.

But I’m also not accepting the idea that issuing detentions = crap disciplinarian, or that reminiscing about ye olde teacher who could control a class with a raised eyebrow is even remotely helpful.

And, frog you seem to be wilfully ignoring the fact that a pupil’s behaviour is not always in the control of a teacher, regardless of what the teacher says, does, sets the tone, whatever.

A few on this thread seem to think it’s soley the responsibility of a teacher.

And I thought we were having a conversation about respect in the context of education and what it means. I'm not 'banging on' about anything. How bloody rude.

If it's the first lesson it's up to you to set the tone - that's what building a relationship between teacher and pupil is about, no?! It seems to me that you are wilfully misunderstanding the really quite uncontroversial point I'm trying to make, which is that discipline needs to be underpinned by good teacher-student relationships in order to be effective. If a rule is applied unfairly or cruelly then even the meekest most well-behaved kid will be tempted to kick off. The kind of dictatorial nonsense utterly lacking in any humanity or flexibility going on in some schools is not the way to good discipline, it's a way to alienate well-behaved kids like the op without doing anything to engage the hard nuts. If a kid has been bunking off school for months, do you think putting them in internal isolation for having their tie done up wrong is going to re-engage them with education?

don't think that children shouldn't behave until their teacher respects them

Why do you keep banging on about teachers respecting the kids when generally kids piss about because they don’t respect the teachers? I had a kid kick off in my very first lesson with them this year. The pupil is known to be difficult. Did they kick off because I didn’t respect them? I doubt it, they had barely met me. I’m not the problem there.

And if a teacher is handing out detentions then no, the assumption should not automatically be that the teacher is to blame. Don’t assume that teachers who don’t hand out detentions have well-behaved classes, I’ve seen some circuses where plenty were deserved and none given. Don’t assume that the teacher handing out detentions is bad at discipline. Other factors also influence class behaviour such as the mix of the pupils which may be different for different subjects, the timing of the lesson (last lesson on Friday?), the teacher may be a young NQT who kids always test, the subject, even the layout of the classroom.

If a kid is racking up detentions from the same teacher then FGS tell them to behave.

I think part of the problem is that many schools are too big, too impersonal and pupils have too many different teachers. It's hard for any teacher to build rapport with their pupils and it makes pastoral care difficult.

It doesn't justify an approach like this though.

*Today 15:18 noblegiraffe

Are you suggesting, Green if a kid is racking up detentions for the same teacher that it must be the teacher’s fault?*

Not at all. But it's obvious there is no mutual respect or relationship.

I'd agree the adult is in charge and needs to engage the child accordingly.

But something isn't right is it?

"I think it's bizarre anyone would suggest that basic manners from students is somehow a negotiable trait based on whether they like someone."

I'm not describing an ideal to aspire to! I don't think that children shouldn't behave until their teacher respects them - I'm saying that is the reality of the situation, whether you like it or not. I think that if kids sense that their teacher thinks they are savages, and acts accordingly, then they are likely to respond in kind. And yes of course it needs to be mutual respect - that's why I used the term 'mutual', as you noticed. If kids don't have the basic life skills to engage with the rules of the game, then obviously you'll have to go in more strictly than if they do.

And yes, giraffe, if there is only one teacher out of 20 that is handing out detentions to otherwise well-behaved kids, then that teacher needs to consider what is going on - isn't that kind of obvious?! Again, that's not some new-age fluffiness - if every other teacher is managing to control these kids and you aren't, then that does rather suggest your disciplinary strategy leaves something to be desired. There's only one adult in the situation and so yes, it's absolutely their responsibility to establish control in appropriate ways.

flicka that's sad and makes me feel very fortunate to have our local school as it is.

Pointythings, in our area most of the schools are of the kind my daughter could not tolerate. Huge and not particularly good discipline. The kind of schools that are being discussed probably won't reach our area for another 5 years at least! Hence the complete oversubscription to fussy faith school and me having to do an appeal for youngest daughter!

Maisy I agree it often comes from home.

In the wider scheme of things as a society we need to reach out to families who don't value education. That means actually tackling inequality in the UK. I'm not sure any of the current political parties have the nerve to do it.

Are you suggesting, Green if a kid is racking up detentions for the same teacher that it must be the teacher’s fault?

Yeah. Dd's gone on a French exchange. I can't imagine saying to her it's fine for her to be rude to the parents until they earn her respect. It's the same as people you see on mumsnet saying "teachers need to earn respect."

New system at school here

Kids are given a detention slip which is sent home signed by the teacher who have it.

Same teacher out of what 20 lessons a week?

Has to be a link