School in Middlesbrough excludes 41% of pupils

I imagine there was a bit more to it than uniform infringements tbh.

Certainly school pupils have to do as they are told or there is disaster.

How much more teaching do you think went on in the school when it was in special measures and the teachers weren’t enforcing the uniform rules?

Pointy so you’d prefer that the defiant (as admitted by her parents) pupil was allowed to stay in the classroom being defiant and refusing to follow reasonable instructions?

I wonder how the remaining 60 odd percent of pupils feel about the exclusion rate?

" The existence of a uniform is not the issue here."
well obviously it is.
Honestly the teachers whining about this kind of thing when they could just be doing the jobs they trained for , just sound so anal.
is there a module at TT college on sock or trouser inspection?

The existence of a uniform is not the issue here.

Agreed - the choice to sweat the small stuff is the issue here. I would not want to send my child to a school with such high exclusion rates.

uniform is always a good thing.

I’m saying that uniform is not a bad thing. The school I work in has a strict uniform for KS3/4 and a free-for-all in sixth form. Both are fine.

If a school has a uniform then that’s totally reasonable. If it has a uniform then it is totally reasonable to enforce that uniform.

It’s when you get these bloody stories in the press where parents cry when the school they send their kids to enforce the rules you get people going ‘oh they shouldn’t have a uniform, then there wouldn’t be a problem,’. No, the kids should follow the sodding rules then there wouldn’t be a problem. The existence of a uniform is not the issue here.

" Parents whinging to the press about kids being picked up for incorrect uniform would be better to spend their time supporting the school."

and maybe teachers would be better to spend their time , you know... teaching..? instead of whining about the wrong colour socks or whatever it is that they do. I do realise that they are not decision makers and just have to do as they are told but...

I agree that going to the press achieves nothing and is just as lazy as going the OTT rules route. And I know turning a school around it bloody hard work - I know what it took at ours.

FriedChicken my mum used to teach in jeans and a crazy print top. Got top notch results and never had behaviour issues because she was one tough cookie - but fair. I will never get this obsession with style over substance.

Turning a failing school around is an incredibly hard job. Parents whinging to the press about kids being picked up for incorrect uniform would be better to spend their time supporting the school.

And noble I am just trying to illustrate that I'm not just a moaning parent. I know you are a teacher and a maths expert. You do however seem to be wedded to the British belief that uniform is always a good thing. We will simply have to disagree. All I will say is that I have always abided by the rules, because I chose to live here and put my children through the school system here. However, that does not mean I have to like it and I do have the right to express that dislike on forums like this one.

there was no need for that noblegiraffe, I am just saying I am in a position to remember a different time, quite well, because I still have the photos. It wasn't something that they stressed about, attainment was. No need to be spiteful.

No, of course it doesn't mean it's wrong! It also doesn't mean it's right though. Ultimately if it's possible to take a big picture approach, turn a school around and have a school where parents and pupils are happy, with low levels of exclusion, isn't that preferable to a school that takes a micromanaging approach, has high levels of exclusion and where parents and pupils are not happy? Especially when there is now pressure on secondary places and many parents may not have an alternative? I don't see why the school doesn't try to achieve both good ratings and high rates of pupil and parent satisfaction when it is clearly possible to do so. It swmacks of laziness to me.

Oh, what do I know, my mum was never a teacher.

yes I still have school pics of my mum with her various classes from back in the 70s, and every single child is wearing a vague approximation of the uniform, like we all did back then, including in my rather fancy London girls' school...
I really don't think uniform improves attainment, any more than wearing a suit might make you a better teacher...

Just because this school is taking a different approach, pointy regarding uniform, it doesn’t mean it’s wrong.

If it were making a huge fuss about uniform and still languishing in special measures, then that might be the point to query whether attention would be better spent elsewhere.

Meh. My DD's school was on the verge of special measures when I moved into our neighbourhood. Now it's good verging on outstanding. All without extreme uniform measures or extreme policies on exclusion. Clearly they didn't need to sweat the small stuff to turn the school around because they did well on the big stuff.

My mother was a teacher. She never needed to sweat the small stuff to maintain order and achieve the best for her pupils because the school was well run in every way. That's what matters.

I think uniform is a waste of teaching time tbh.
I mean, who signs up for teacher training college, excited about their future job where they might get to stand on a school gate checking people's sock colour?
I believe there are successful schools that have no uniform - they have a dress code that is something like 'clean, covered, comfortable'.

The school was in special measures in 2015, it’s now good. Part of that turnaround has come from sweating the small stuff, don’t you think?

My assumption is that if there were a simple dress code, or no uniform at all, the school could focus on managing behaviour. As long as everyone is clean and covered, what's the issue? And in life on the whole I've always found that things work out better if you don't sweat the small stuff.

The problem I have with 'the government has said they shouldn't be doing it' is that the government refuses to enforce this. If schools with single supplier demands were instantly given a failing OFSTED for it, things would probably change very quickly indeed. And I don't see any other method having an effect.

Uniform doesn’t have to be expensive.
Obviously schools that are insisting on expensive logoed items from a single supplier are an issue and the government has said that they shouldn’t be doing it.

This school has a uniform, which it is enforcing. There is an assumption that if it didn’t pick up when kids were wearing the wrong uniform that there would be no behaviour issues. You’re saying ‘pick your battles’. The school is saying ‘sweat the small stuff’.

My main 'so what' is that schools are getting away with using uniform as a cash cow and a way of excluding kids from poorer families by making it insanely expensive - and then claiming that uniform reduces bullying, improves outcomes etc. etc.

My second 'so what' is that most parents have no option in terms of sending their kids to a school which has no uniform because the UK is in thrall to this idea that uniform is so great despite the lack of evidence to that effect.

FYI my kids have always turned up to school in correct uniform. Every. Single. Day. They have not been in trouble, ever. They are high achievers who regularly get commended for good behaviour, helpfulness and academic achievement. I understand the need for rules. But given that our non-wealthy and non-leafy school manages without being super strict about it, I do wonder why other schools can't.

Great, you get that there’s more than one way to skin a cat.

So this school has a uniform and is choosing to enforce it.

You don’t like uniform, but so what?

noble I get that uniform helps you. That's great. But there are ways and ways of doing that, even if your premise is that there has to be uniform. You say that tucked in shirts and ties present and correct helps you set boundaries - that's great and it works for you. A teacher in Holland might say that if students go straight to their seats and set out what they will need for the upcoming lesson, that is what works for them. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

And what gets me about the reason is that people come out with all these statements - that uniform is a leveller, that it improves education, that is prevents bullying - but all without a shred of researched evidence to support their statements. That's just not good enough. If there is a reason, let's see that reason - with supporting evidence based on high quality research.

As for the scouts - you have a choice about joining the scouts. You don't have a choice about going to school (and rightly so). So when you choose the scouts, you know that uniform is a part of that and you can make an informed choice. That is not the case for school.