As the Tiffin deadline looms, is there a girls SW London grammars / indies thread yet?

My DS went to one of the ‘top’ Prep schools in SW London and as far as I am concerned, the influence the Prep Heads have with the Independent secondaries is massively exaggerated. The schools want the top academic students so they don’t take pupils based on a phone call from the Prep Head. I suspect people want to believe they are getting this extra help because of the money they have paid.

I have a question - do Tiffin not interview applicants then? Is selection purely in exam performance alone?

Obviously second hand but my friend has a daughter at TIffin Girls and one at primary with my DD. The older one is very happy there despite a more complicated journey.. she is a whizz at maths and science and is not finding the workload too much at all.

Mine didn't get through round 1 but didn't fancy it much after the exam anyway, partly the crowds and partly that she just found the maths so hard. Also she had seen a couple of private schools by then and as others have said they make the open days so much more attractive than TGS as did our local state school which has a fab atmosphere. She tried very hard to get out of doing the exam! I guess there's an upside in there for us as we don't have to make the decision!

@Backman thank you! I may take you up on that if DD gets an offer or decent position on the WL.

I have dc at WHS and am happy to answer questions by PM

@Jimjam68 I honestly don't know...my DD initially said she really liked TGS but I think she was just saying that because she knew it was really hard to get in. To motivate her to continue studying for the private school exams I pointed out that if she went to TGS she'd have to wake up half an hour earlier so now she's convinced she wants to go to WHS. I worry about her being too keen on any of them because who knows what will happen. Just trying to tell her to keep an open mind. I don't know anyone who has real life experience of TGS and have concerns about how pressured it is but realise that this is based on hearsay. It would be so useful to be able to chat with people who have direct experience of the schools but have no idea how to do this.

Of course cost is a huge consideration, and I’m just wondering how people will navigate the choice should it arise. Having shown our DD the shiny private schools and agreed we will involve her in the decision, knowing her preference is skewed by the better treatment she has experienced from the private schools - how on earth I would steer her back to the state option? I’m sure many of us face this scenario.

Jimjam - total agreement that the experience of the open day and the exam days have completely put off my dd from wanting to go to Tiffin. It is indeed a long shot for us and would save us a lot of money but convincing our dd will be very difficult if we were lucky (?) enough to get a place. I’ve also no idea of the reality of life at TGS.

Earlier post correction: stressed=stretched.

For working parents like us who dont have grandparents and/or othee support neither qualified for any school bursary then cost is a matter. Grammar is completely free, only 3 miles from us so ofcourse its one of my favourite choice. However since beginning of this journey we have promised her that eventually if there are choices she could choose and we will support, she seems to have forget about it all these days.

Out of interest for those currently receiving indie results and also awaiting grammar school results, where do you stand on preference? Whilst it seems like a long shot to get Tiffin, it is a possibility as DD sat the stage 2 exams. But I know very little about what life is like at Tiffin compared to an indie. My DD and her friends who also sat the exams are not too keen. Mainly because there experience of the school totals the open day (a scrum with hundreds of other people when you really couldn’t get a feel for the school) and the 2 exam days which in all honesty are a borderline disgrace in their treatment of 10/11 year old girls. It’s hard for anyone to get a warm fuzzy feeling about these schools and I will be hard pushed to persuade DD it’s a great option (should she be “lucky” enough to get in). Thoughts?

Thanks so much 1ndig0, first time heard of CAT too, very informative and insightful!

Couple of my daughter class mates moved to prep schools at year 3 too, even their elder children went to the top Indie after 7 years at my daughter school. We chose her school because its only a short walk from home. And yes, she hasnt been stressed at her school however she still has fun, loves her friends, her teachers and it doesnt cost any so I would do it again. It would have been much more stressful for us paying for prep school, additional care cost in pick and drop daily plus longer holiday child care cost and additional travelling time for her on daily basis at such a young age. Majority of parents at my daughter school could send their children to private(85% of the leavers ended at private), they didnt need to.
Earlier this thread we discussed about how many schools parents applied and I said we applied more than we might need to(well especially CLSG which we were least impressed after the interview reception last Friday). For 11+, she started with Maths and English in Oct year 5 with a group Tutor, had a 10+ place offer in Jan, scored 2nd in Wilson mock in the summer, had band A Henrietta round two even has never done any CEM, she still didnt feel certain. Some exams she said were very tough, questions she had to leave blank. She might have never done any exam before KGS 10+ last year academically however she has done loads for music which I think definitely helps.

A lot about GCSE results depends how you slice and dice them though. SPGS and G&L may have very similar results if you look at A-A* for example. But if you look at Grade 9s only, the differences emerge again (57% vs 83% or similar). I agree the differences may be narrowing, but they are still there when you split hairs!

In about March of Year 5, you have to hand in the form that asks for your 5 school choices. This is following at least one recorded meeting with the head to discuss realistic choices for your child. If the head is not happy with your choices they tell you and there have been cases where they refuse to sign off the form and / or to write references.

The way is was explained to me is that CAT tests assess underlying ability. For instance, a child may be consistently scoring 141 in areas of CAT maths, but this by no means guarantees they will be achieving 100% in all school maths tests because there may be other factors such as motor-planning issues, confidence, concentration or maturity that means they’re not performing at this level. It helps the school to find strategies to enable each child to reach their potential, especially where there may be SPLD such as dyslexia or dyspraxia. Or if they think pupils will need extra time in exams they put them in touch with Ed Psychs who can make such recommendations. They also use other internal assessments to track reading age, spelling age and numeracy against national standardised scores (I think all schools do this) and are clear to parents that wherever a child fall off their individual trajectory year to year or term to term, they don’t ask “Why is the child getting it wrong?” but “What are we getting wrong.”

Having said this, they also know the reality is that even the brightest child can have an off day and some children perform more consistently under exam conditions than others. This is why they tell you to do 5 schools, one if which must be a “failsafe.” If you don’t have a failsafe, the head rings you and tells you to sort it out because very few people have made state school applications as well, so nothing to fall back on.

Yes, DH mentioned that as an idea.. DS would have an absolute fit.

I have a friend with an older child who having gone through the stress of 11+ coming from a state school, promptly moved her younger one to a prep school so it was less stressful second time round. I can see why she did this now although won’t be doing it for my younger one.

We also have a younger child.. as DD has always been told she's right at the top of her year in all subjects and she hasn't got in everywhere we really need to think hard about what to do next time. Perhaps if we had our time over we would have put them in prep school - or practiced papers every day - but they've been happy at their primary and honestly it didn't occur to me- I always thought it would be wasted money and possibly even counter-productive. I had no idea what a tough process this would be (basically no idea at all of the numbers(.

Thanks 1ndig0 for the insight into how prep schools work. I had no idea prep schools and the heads have so much influence into where children apply and recommend children to secondary schools depending on CAT scores. And I didn’t know that you can be guided by the CAT scores as to which secondary school to apply. Do the CAT scores get written on the references? What age do children start doing CATs? Such a different world to those of us blindly seeing the way ourselves! So interesting! I’d never heard of CATs before this thread.

1ndig0 so interesting! Thanks! I agree with Jimjam68, I wonder if it's possible to get a CAT test for my younger child so that I am not applying blindly like this time.

That’s really interesting 1indigo, if only we in the state sector could have CAT test results we might select the schools we aim for in a slightly more informed way, than just a “feeling” I suspect a lot of us rely on.

I know DC who got into one of the schools on here on the wl and ended up as head girl. Don’t let it deter you one bit!

Flume - on the subject of the stats, I can relate to you exactly what I was shown by the head at our prep. I was actually quite surprised that they use numbers to guide senior school entry, but they most certainly do! The head showed me a chart ranking the schools on this basis.

CAT scores are not quite like IQ scores because the top score is 141 (IQ scores can go higher). The CAT tests assess potential ability, rather than actual academic performance at that point in time. So the CATs assess different areas in maths - spacial as well as numerical ability. Then thete is something that approximates to VR and NVR but it’s nothing like the papers in the Bond books etc. CAT tests are done on a computer and can’t really be “taught”. The school do other tests to assess your reading age, comprehension skills etc but these are different tests as I understand it (on paper). The pupils do these tests twice a year and no big deal is made of it. Parents barely know they are doing the tests at all or what their DC’s scores are. It’s only at 11 plus they get mentioned.

The “average” score nationally would be in the 90-100 range. I think this covers about 60% of the population. However, in certain areas and certain schools (state or non-selective primaries) this “average” is skewed by the demographic. So in this school, the average is 115. I suspect that a state primary in affluent parts of Putney, Chelsea, Fulham, Wimbledon, Barnes and so on, would be very similar. There will be many areas like this where the average is skewed. Obviously this has ramifications for secondary school selections in that area.

The head showed me a chart. Schools such as Westminster, St Paul’s Boys and Girls and (I think) KCS require CAT scores averaging 135. LU requires 130. G&L 128. Wimbledon and Putney High used to be about 120-125, but now it’s more like 125. The head was showing me this to explain why it probably wasn’t wise to use PHS as a “easier” option. Things have changed a lot in recent years and WHS and PHS are becoming more competitive. The same can be said for KGS. Even Ibstock, which used to be more of a failsafe option for some, now gets the same results as KGS. All schools are becoming more and more selective as the years go by, simply because they can be.

The head said some schools are more predictable in terms of entry than others. For instance, LU is quite unpredictable because they interview about 450 for 120 places but then tend to take the more articulate, outgoing characters, often turning the more academic, quieter ones away. Some schools put more emphasis on interview than others. Hampton is more predictable and has certain feeder schools (ie. prep heads can have more sway in influencing offers there). The Consortium schools are all a bit of an unknown this year as the exam has changed.

At this prep they are streamed into 3 sets for maths and English. The head will not write you a reference for a school that is deemed out of reach for any particular pupil. Their relationship with the senior schools rests on “sending” them viable candidates. As you can imagine, this does not go down well with many parents! So for KCS, Westminster or SPGS, it’s a couple to a handful at most from the top sets for English and Maths - it varies year to year. LU tends to be pupils at the upper end of the top Maths and English sets, but it does happen that one or two get in who were in the middle set for one ir the other. Same with LEH and G&L. PHS and WHS are the “stretch” options for those in the middle sets, as is KGS.

This is just about the admissions though. In recent years, PHS and WHS (though supposedly “easier” to get into) are achieving over 90% A-A at GCSE - very similar results to LU or LEH. The heads have changed at both which may have had something to do with it. Also, G&L, although supposedly easier to get into than say LU, SPGS or KCS, achieved over 98% A-A last year. It’s only a fraction lower than SPGS now in terms of GCSE stats. KGS is now getting 85% A-A* as the norm, as is Ibstock which used to be regarded as a less pressured environment. Schools change, but it is a SW London “bubble” and actually, a bright child will do just as well in any of them and the academic differences in standard are wafer-thin when you consider things at a national level.

So those are the stats as they were explained to me - sorry for the essay!

Kalifornia 😂

I’d have no problem accepting a waitlist place. Remember they are judging the child on one exam (or interview) and once st the school everyone is in an equal footing. Some may have done amazingly well in the admissions process (maybe due to tutor/parental preparation/prep school practice or simply luck). At the school they are all starting new subjects and syllabuses and some of the ones at the top of their list might well be overtaken by ones lower down their list or from the WL. Who knows?
Kalaforniadreamz - you make me laugh! we also have a younger Ds and dreading going through this again!! Was looking at him earlier and wondering if it’s too late to start coaching him for a music or sports scholarship to save us some fees!

I’m not so sure many of them do have a type. I think they may just strictly rank by test scores, but adjust for anyone showing exceptional potential at interview/assessment day. Selection is a dark art anyway that’s for sure!