Residential trip COST!!!

Our school did an activity week involved cheap activities every day. One day orentearing one day at the museum one day on a local team building activity

You will see in my post that I had £5 for admin/insurance costs per person ...Kingswood actually have more than 165000 children through there centres each year which amounts to £825k of income based on my costs to cover such things as central office/staff/training/equipment maintenance etc...the accommodation costs were £10 per child per night ..most children share dorms of 10-12 children so that is £100/£120 per room tonight which if you treat it the same way has a hotel includes all the light/electricity/water/cleaning and everything else accommodation related. The cost I forecast for food includes everything to do with food including making the food (a centre doesnt need lots of cooks etc when they are preparing bulk food - we regularly stayed at centre where there were just two cooks for up to 104 teachers/children -its amazing what a commercial dishwasher can do). I dont think I need to explain the transport costs - we are 1hr north of London and Britannia Coaches who Kingswood use quoted (We haven’t heard back from our quotation sent out via Kingswood for 1 x 34 seater for the return price of £918.72, so we wanted to make sure if you required the transport prior to your upcoming trip..) The wage costs maybe on the low side but I do know that Kingswood use European staff and kids on gap years so if they have accommodation and food included then wage costs would not be that high. If you look at Kingswood Accounts the average wage of ALL their employees is just £17K...I think I estimated that activity leaders would be on £14.4k so not that far out given the £17k is ALL employees.(687 employees 11m of costs). The accounts make interesting reading - as do all accounts where there are private equity firms with revaluations of assets (£5m revaluation in 2016).

I'm not a naive parent I actually have used Kingswood about 10 times in the last 7 years for group trips ...I have cut and pasted our quote/price from this years trip taking out relevant information - The cost was £70 for 2 nights fully inclusive of activities/food and in small ensuite rooms because it was families (plus 3 FREE places)... If our group had stayed 4 nights the cost would have been slightly less then pro rata..so less than £140 for 4 nights ..so have Kingswood been offering my group trips for the last 7 years to make a loss or are Kingswood overcharging schools? Its the same package!

Tour Ref: Arrival Date: Centre: No of Free Adults: Sat 05/05/2018 West Runton 3 Course: Departure Date: No of Students: No of Paying Adults: Mon 07/05/2018 27 Party Leader: Year Group(s): 7 to 8 (Yr3),8 to 9 (Yr4),9 to 10 (Yr5),10 to 11 (Yr6),11 to 12 (Yr7),12 to 13 (Yr8),15 to 16 (Yr11),18 to 99 (Adults Only) Accommodation Type: Standard Room Adventure Choice Early Arrival: No Description Deposit per Student plus VAT Due Date NET VAT GROSS FINAL BALANCE £70.00 10/04/2018 £1,890.00 £378.00 £2,268.00 Total Payments £0.00 £2,268.00 Cost Per Student : £70.00 Total Cost of Visit (Plus VAT): (Including paying adults) £1,890.00

We didnt run a program in 2017 with Kingswood but in 2016 we paid £60 again for two nights all inclusive...

If I had not have been getting package prices of well below what schools are charged I would not be on this thread and I do think that activity holidays are great for kids hence why I have been running them for so long (10 years now with a mixture of companies and 7 years with Kingswood).

3 I know of but don't know prices:-

Grendon Hall, Northamptonshire
Frontier Centre, Irthlingborough, Northamptonshire
Milton Park, Cambridge (looks the best for outside activities, bushcraft, canoeing)

Not sure where you are based or how many you need to cater for. Our schools have done various residentials from 30 - 300.

Unfortunately it does depend on your week as they generally get a good deal as they are repeat bookers. Especially the 300 + children which is a yearly residential for year 8s.

And support is available for those on pupil premium.

Ds is off to PGL in September. Monday morning - Friday night, so four nights, five days - £276 all inclusive.

Which is quite enough!

This is why schools should not be allowed to offer residential trips, they are just yet another way of discriminating against the poor.

At my cousin’s children’s state primary they did a whole school camping and bbq weekend... on the school sports pitch 😂

But they ARE the costs of providing the service. If you want the service, you do have to pay for the people who do the payroll and the cleaning and who hire the staff etc etc etc....or do you think that all of these tasks should be performed by people not being paid?

It may well be that your school or you decide that the product/service offered is beyond your financial capability and like lots of things, you just can't afford it. That's fine, but not the same as saying they are over-charging. Just because something is expensive and beyond your pocket or your choice of what to spend on an activity or holiday doesn't mean it's overcharging.

Perhaps someone could research and find out if there is a cheaper option - but do bear in mind that all providers will need to cover cleaning, hiring staff, electricity and a massive long list which is far far longer than you seem to think. And perhaps the cost of that persons time whilst researching should also be considered, or the fact that perhaps they will need to do less marking or preparation whilst looking for a cheaper option.

It reminds me of people who say 'how dare they charge £2.50 for a cup of tea - I know a teabag costs about 2p and the milk 1p - what a ridiculous mark up.

Fair enough if the cost of such an activity is beyond the parents at the school - in life, there are lots of things we can't afford and choose to go without. That's not quite the same thing though as saying the business is making X00% profit and ripping people off, and it's not the same as recognising it's expensive, but perhaps once in a primary career worth some level of reasonable sacrifice (and I know not everyone will ever be able to pay) especially if a Yr 6 trip is known to happen every single year and so actually, there are several years to start saving if you want to.

GahWhatever - you are right that wage costs are going to be the main cost driver of an activity week. Wage costs are the main cost driver of schools, even without a boarding/residential element.

And the big question is whether covering those wage costs gives educational value for money? The parents/children ar our school definitely didn’t think so.

@Teenmum60
The staffing costs are per person ...there are in the region of 15 kids in an activity group ...Kingswood employ mainly YOUNG people on a minimum wage so (£60 per day probably less if they include food and maybe accommodation for some) 15 x £20 = £300 for 5 days..even if the staffing costs were double then its still a massive mark up.
I'm going to have to hide this thread because it is making me irrationally frustrated. I know you are doing this to be deliberately provocative because no-one is that divorced from reality and I'm falling for it but for some reason I can't help it.
One instructor per 15 children on £60 per day =£ 300 for the week. Plus a cleaner, shall we say one per 15 as it isn't so much the dorms as the corridors and the offices and the kitchens and the toilets and the mess halls etc.? =£300. Plus a groundsman to cut the grass and paint the buildings and change the plugs and prune the trees and maybe maintain some of the kit but that does tend to be a specialist job: you can't get away with minimum wage for this one so shall we say £80 per day, £400 per week?
Now who will answer the phone and make the bookings and send out the invoices etc. lets hire an admin. Also not min wage so £400 per week.
If we presume that at any one time there will be more than 15 kids on site, you need to multiply up the activity leaders, the cleaners, the kitchen staff (forgot them earlier) and someone will need to supervise them and sort payroll etc.
Shall we pay a chef and a cleaning supervisor and a senior activities person who can sort the training for the activities and write the risk assessments and arrange that the equipment is regularly maintained? Shall we employ a wages clerk? At year end shall we employ an accountant??
The single minimum wage person you have budgeted for is so far below what is required to run a business. On top of all of those: you do know that an employee costs much more than the money they earn don't you? The employer has to pay NI and tax as well as the employee.

Anyhoo OP: I hope you find a way to deliver the holiday you want to.

Can I just ask, who pays for the teachers or teaching assistants that goes with the kids?

ChocolateWombat - Inspiring Learning (which owns Kingswood) is owned by Bridgepoint, a private equity fund. Private equity funds have been buying up businesses that operate in the rather grey area in between state education and private add ons. You can be fairly sure that they are all making one heck of a lot of money.

I agree that the list of costs which concluded there was a 300% mark up was fantasy, but does show how limited people's awareness of the full range of costs involved in running a service, when everything has to be paid for, rather than being run by volunteers or a charity.

There is an element if competition in the school residential trips market. The idea that any firm could make 300% profit is laughable. Those firms know that school budgets are tight and there is competition and a maximum parents can and will pay. Yes, they have to include something for profit - all businesses need to do this or won't operate unless they are charities, but it won't be anywhere near the figures suggested and when we buy every other kind of product, we expect the supplier to make some profit too - people need to appreciate that supplying residential activities simply costs a lot of money. And it maybe that there are volunteers in Scouts offering similar activities for less money, but to expect businesses to be able to do it for the same just shows a lack of awareness.

There is a lot of work involved for schools running such trips, even when an external provider is used. Staff really must believe it makes a difference becaue otherwise why would they create more work, give up their evenings/weekends/holidays unpaid to supervise children 24/7 and deal with all the moaning before and after?

Indeed, the staff at Ashford are very young and not well educated.

@Teenmum60 I think in this case its cost justification and PGL are making a huge margin out of an educational trip which cannot be right.
The actual base cost of that trip would be in the region of £130pp (£35 per head food,£40 accommodation,£20 towards employee costs and £25 coach and £10 cover for admin/insurance)....this is probably an over estimation if its a large cohort trip. Its over 300% mark up...and if I was a school I could not justify this ...

I take your point that if you can't afford then you can't afford it, but your 'base costs' are built on fantasy. The scout camp quoted up-thread with no buildings to maintain, no support staff, no professional activity instructors, no insurance to pay, no travel, no cleaners, no cooks, no water rates, no electricity bills, no booking system, no groundsmen, no handymen, no maintenance of equipment, no advertising etc came in at £175. Claiming a 300% mark-up is complete fantasy.

The staffing costs are per person ...there are in the region of 15 kids in an activity group ...Kingswood employ mainly YOUNG people on a minimum wage so (£60 per day probably less if they include food and maybe accommodation for some) 15 x £20 = £300 for 5 days..even if the staffing costs were double then its still a massive mark up. The coach pricing was £1400 and given that most DC's would travel 2 hours each way I think that is more than fair pricing.

I think the activity trips are great...I just think the schools are ripped off because I have booked these trips for far less.

In terms of the cruise we travelled from Southampton so the only costs were petrol which was minimal .. you will be surprised how many cruises there are for under £450...we are going again next easter for the same price and that was an early booking price...although we have paid for flights at £98!

The facilities at Ashford are quite good - I have used that centre several times.(it used to be a Police training academy). It probably has the best non natural high ropes course at any centre... accommodation isnt bad most of the rooms are now ensuite with a chill out room for teaching staff etc tea/coffee/fridge etc...but we found that the meals were too small for kids that were burning up lots of energy...

I actually think these activity centres are very good but they are overcharging schools ....

Where on earth can you get 5 days away from home on a residential visit for £130? I love your staffing costs!!!! I bet you would like everyone to volunteer or be on minimal wages just so you get a saving? As a society we cannot have it all ways. Employess of PGL deserve to be paid decent wages. The coach firms taking the children to activities are not charities. They have wages and costs to pay to keep their fleet on the road. I am very fed up of people moaning and groaning about these trips when everyone concerned is trying to do their best for the children.

The message really has to be that children benefit from these trips. Schools should be aware of their parent body and put on appropriate trips to include as many as possible. Schools should be supported and not continually criticised for doing the right thing.

Maybe the children should all go on a cruise then? Obviously these prices are loss leader prices or cabins they cannot fill! The economic reality is that they cannot do a weeks cruise for £500. You also presumably had to fly to ship or get to the port, so what was the real cost?

All holiday companies are businesses. A few might be charities but with the costs involved, this is very difficult. With good management companies employ people and pay taxes so we all benefit. This pays for education and everything else we want. If parents continually think these holidays are a rip off, then they close and jobs are lost. Let the majority of chidren go and enjoy the trips. At our school we have no negative feedback at all!

And as for supporting the greater good - the consensus among many families at my DD’s school was that a week at Kingswood in Ashford was a week in a prison camp. It didn’t have positive effects on the DC other than, possibly, resilience in the face of hardship.

NCS costs the government about £1,900 per participant. There is currently no proof of any benefit at all accruing to anyone...

Chocolatewombat....You say its not all about the costs but I think in this case its cost justification and PGL are making a huge margin out of an educational trip which cannot be right.
The actual base cost of that trip would be in the region of £130pp (£35 per head food,£40 accommodation,£20 towards employee costs and £25 coach and £10 cover for admin/insurance)....this is probably an over estimation if its a large cohort trip. Its over 300% mark up...and if I was a school I could not justify this ...

NCS run a 3 week program for £50 for the three weeks - one week at a similar site to PGL, one week at a Uni and one week voluntary ...sponsored by the Government... Food and activties included...I would actually say that a year trip is JUST as beneficial.

I do think these trips are important but I would not be comfortable asking a family whose means were tight to pay £300 above the actual cost to boost a companies profit.

I have run numerous events on a not for profit basis at Kingswood and other activity centres for a fraction of the price because unless I feel its a fair price then I wont book the trip...I know all about the admin special needs, medical needs and dietary needs etc ...I may not have run a trip for over 100 but I have run a trip for 86 and I have dealt with all the admin (which to be honest isnt that great because these centres have standard paperwork and systems)....that also involves collecting deposits and balances and also providing info so DBS checks can be undertaken.

Just to give a further prospective on price I have just returned from a 10 day cruise (food all included and so was entertainment) for £500pp.

That's a lovely thought ChocolatWombat, very eloquently put, but, realistically, not many families I know, can afford £450 - £500 to 'support the bigger picture'. We both work and are by no means below any poverty lines, but we also have 3 dc and need to make decision on big financial spending. Obviously those decisions are made on what our dc will get out of the experience, and, unless you are some incredibly rich benefactor, so will all parents' decisions.
That's not to say we don't think of others - indeed, both dh and I are - like Gahwhatever - those people who volunteer many hours of our time every week to give others just such experiences at minimal costs, but I don't think it is realistic to expect parents to sacrifice something else for their family, so that "other children" get to enjoy an expensive trip more.

I do think it sounds a lot (my son did an Isle of White PGL last year mon-fri coach & ferry crossing was £395 all in) however I do think you should still offer it as the increase in confidence in so many of the children was tangible. I would add to that the following:
Tell them early & offer a payment plan

Be transparent about the costs, give a breakdown of travel, food etc tell them you've negotiated best prices, look at ways of cost cutting etc

If they are Yr7&8 encourage children to take ownership and raise some of the money themselves by babysitting, paper round, car washing, odd jobs