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Original poster

foundation vs higher maths?

41 replies

TheVastMajority · 09/06/2018 08:59

Im a foster parent, my own kids are very able at maths, so Ive not come across this before - hoping a maths teacher can advise?

FC has been placed in higher math class. SHe struggles but in class is managing. AT home she received regular tutoring, and seems to get most of the concepts, but none of this is translating to success in exams.

Recently she completed a GCSE higher practice paper - she is Y10. Her results were dire - 7 or 8 out of 80 for each paper, so working at around 10%. Now a lot of her classmates also did poorly, but most were at least in the 50% range at this stage - given that they have another year to go, this was good.

Her maths teacher has suggested that she consider moving to foundation, and consolidating her knowledge.

SHe is resisting, saying she needs 80% to pass at foundation and 12% to pass at higher?

This is the bit I really dont understand.

My own feelings are that as she has no desire to continue with a STEM subject or even a business subject at 6th form, she should opt for foundation and get a good grade, albeit a maximum of 5. This will boost her self esteem and be a solid pass, rather than a possible fail.

AM I understanding it correctly? And as a Math teacher, would you think this is a sensible approach?

OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 09/06/2018 11:33

Foundation and higher are tiers of entry for maths GCSE. It means that students sit a paper with an appropriate level of questions for them - a grade 5 is a grade 5 and the GCSE certificate doesn’t say whether the student sat the higher or foundation paper.

gillybeanz · 09/06/2018 11:30

Aw, thanks I can breathe again now.
Had end of year (y9) test this week, not sure what she got but she said it went well.
last time she said this she made double figures, just about. Grin
I think she is going to do a bit of work over the summer holidays, as she has such a long holiday she quite enjoys doing a bit.

BiscuitsRule · 09/06/2018 11:28

OP can I jump on your thread a little? Is foundation Maths equivalent to a GCSE? When Unis say they want 5 GCSEs inc Maths and English does it matter wether it is foundation you did or higher?

TeenTimesTwo · 09/06/2018 11:27

I'm glad to hear too there is room for silly mistakes.

I'm just listening to DD2 revising for y8 maths test. '3 times 3 is 6...' [despair]

Notevilstepmother · 09/06/2018 11:24

Maths teacher here. I’d get her to try a foundation past paper and see what her score is. Chances are she’d be better doing foundation.

noblegiraffe · 09/06/2018 11:23

Don’t worry gilly there is plenty of scope for making silly mistakes on Foundation and still getting a 4! Remember you only needed 50% last year.

gillybeanz · 09/06/2018 11:19

Oh no, have just seen the point about the silly mistakes.
I'm worried now too.
My dd has a target of level 4, but she makes silly mistakes, and will take lower paper.
This seems very unfair as those on higher paper can make marks up with higher questions.

noblegiraffe · 09/06/2018 11:15

There’s overlap between the two papers, so the questions that she answered correctly on the higher paper are most likely also on the foundation paper and would be some of the more difficult questions on the paper, so that might boost her confidence.
We move quite a few students from higher to foundation at this stage, and even after Y11 mocks so it should be fine. At my school we found that borderline students who moved to foundation actually had a better chance of getting a 5 than students who stuck with higher.

Original poster
TheVastMajority · 09/06/2018 11:01

noble thank you so much - that makes it clearer. Ive requested a meet with the math teacher, and I hope we can come to some agreement on way forward. WIll it be very hard to move from higher to foundation do you think? CHallenging in social terms, but Im considering the work - will her stint in higher have given her some benefit in Foundation?

OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 09/06/2018 10:49

Hah Teen, already there! Grin

TeenTimesTwo · 09/06/2018 10:49

x-post with noble

TeenTimesTwo · 09/06/2018 10:49

I recommend seeing what @noblegiraffe has to say, or listening to the school if you have faith in them.

I have no idea what is best in your case as I'm not a teacher, just an interested maths degree parent of 2 (adopted as it happens) DDs who struggle with maths.

What is her general confidence at maths like, and also does she make 'easy' mistakes when dealing with things like negative numbers, times tables or simply misreading questions?

noblegiraffe · 09/06/2018 10:48

Last year it was about 17% for a pass (4) on Higher and about 50% for a pass on Foundation. When she says 80%, it makes it sound much harder to pass on Foundation than it actually is.

I agree with her teacher. If she is getting 7 marks out of 80 on the higher paper (9%), then mathematically she should be sitting Foundation. What is the point of her sitting for 4.5 hours next summer to sit exams where she isn’t going to be able to answer the vast majority of the questions? She would need to double her score to pass, and because the questions on higher are so difficult, that’s actually not going to be easy to do.

Yes, her potential grade at Foundation will be capped at a 5, but at the moment she isn’t anywhere near even getting a 4.

The only times I would suggest her persisting with higher was if she was desperate for a grade higher than a 5 (e.g. needed a 6 for A-level science) and was willing to put lots of extra work in and possibly hiring a tutor, or if something had gone disastrously wrong for Y10 exams and the results weren’t an accurate reflection of her real ability.

But you say she is lazy and doesn’t really have any motivation to get higher than a 5, so Foundation should be the way forward.

Original poster
TheVastMajority · 09/06/2018 10:18

thank you. Boo32, is that 14% or 14/80? I think she is in lower class for the higher group.

Teentimestwo, what would you recommend?

Im getting mixed advice - the teacher is suggesting she drop, as is the head of Virtual Schools, who knows child.

But others are saying not to drop and she has time to catch up.

SHe is very lazy and Im wondering if a compromise might be good - that if she has not made X grade by X date on higher, we will put her into foundation? This means she will need to work hard to get her grades and understanding up by mocks in January, and then make a decision at that point. It gives her something to work on.

DO you think it would be a good idea to try her out in a foundation paper in a simulated exam setting and see how she gets on, so that she has a feel for the type of paper and gets a feel for her own abilities?

OP posts:
TeenTimesTwo · 09/06/2018 09:28

I don't think her percentages are exactly right, but she has the right idea.

To get a 4 or a 5 on the foundation paper you need to get more correct. This is because the first part of the foundation paper contains 'easier' questions. The grade 4 and 5 questions appear on both papers, but the foundation paper gives them a 'run in' to them, where as in the higher paper they are immediately faced with the grade 4 questions.

For a student who makes silly mistakes, if they drop too many questions they can go down to a 3 even if they get the grade 4/5 questions right. Whereas on the higher paper, they might get something wrong at grade 4/5, but pick up the odd mark on a grade 6 question to compensate.

Alternatively, a less secure pupil might panic at a paper where they can only do a few questions.
On the other hand, dropping down to foundation at the last minute can cause issues if they are given 'easy' topics that they might be rusty on and not practiced since y9.

BOO32 · 09/06/2018 09:11

That level does sound like foundation is worth a try. Is she in the most appropriate class at school? Getting 50% at end of year 10 is very much the top set at my school and they work at a fast pace. is there a lower set still doing higher which may be taught at her pace? Students who were getting about 14 marks on higher by October in year 11 have mostly stayed on it at my school.