My son has the chance to drop Latin in Year 9 to study 'Classical Civilisation' instead. Is this dumbing down?

I enjoyed doing Classical Civilisation probabably more than any other subject at O level, so I'd go for that (I was very glad to drop Latin). Went on to do International Politics at university and the only language that would have come in handy was Arabic (don't think many schools teach that!). dh dropped Latin to do computer studies which was very frowned upon because obviously computers are for thickies (about equivalent to typing courses then) now he is a computer programmer I think he might beg to differ! However he says that all his knowledge about how language works comes from doing Latin (have to say all I really picked up was how to get the Latin teacher to cry - he did get ever so soppy about his texts!). My sister did Latin to A level and found it useful for her Botany degree. I think it depends on the rest of the subjects and the direction you want to go in.

Thanks Jetgirl. I will go for it I think. I'm a parent governor and the head is now used to me pouncing on him to announce - I've had a brilliant idea, why don't we.... which usually ends with me landing myself with a ton of work. So we'll see how he reacts to this one! He may think not enough children will be interested.
I'm really keen to do the OU Latin course for my own benefit too - I feel I've forgotten everything I knew.

Minimus is the way to go! I teach it in years 7 and 8, though it is suitable for primary school, before moving on to Cambridge Latin Course in year 9. Many teachers who use Minimus don't even have any Latin, so you will have no problem with it. It's such fun, I read the Mini books to my 21 month old, she loves the pictures!
There is massive support for Minimus clubs from the Primary Latin Project, who will give grants to schools who want to set up clubs. Where are you? There are 'Mouseholes' all over the country who are basically people who support Minimus clubs in their region.

Jetgirl - glad to hear they teach Latin at some state schools still - none of the schools in our area teach it now - even the private ones.
My DD who is in year 5 wants to learn it (very keen on the Roman mysteries) and I was thinking of offering to set up a Year 6 Latin club (after school) using the Minimus Mouse stuff. I have A-level Latin myself although a long time ago and I was thinking of picking it up again as part of my OU History degree.
Do you think it would be feasible, if she likes it, to carry on teaching her at home to GCSE level? I loved Latin at school and I find it very disappointing that my children won't get the opportunity to learn to love it too.

Just stumbled across this chat while browsing instead of washing up!

I'm a Classics teacher, though only teach Latin at the (state) school I work at. Haven't read whole thread but I would say:

if your son does find it difficult, and thinks he really won't get much more out of it switch to Class Civ, which I think is a wonderful subject. Latin does get difficult. As he has one year of Latin behind him it would probably be worth continuing to the end of year 9, if nothing else the grammar will help his English which will be useful for SATS, and then of course he can choose not to continue. By then he will probably be hooked and want to continue.

At GCSE there is a module on Roman life which can be taken as an exam or as coursework depending on how the school runs the course.

It goes without saying that you couldn't take A/s and A level Latin without the GCSE behind you, however, Classical Civilisation can be studied then without any prior knowledge, though GCSE History is often considered useful. Class Civ at this level copvers a wide range of topics and probably in more depth than a stint in year 9 would.

I am assuming your son is bright and interested in the ancient world, so this would be a perfectly reasonable option if he didn't or couldn't take the other options at GCSE.

Sorry, this is a bit rambly, but hope it's of some use!

I didn't find Latin difficult at all. I enjoyed it but we had a fantastic teacher (which is the A and O for any subject I suppose) and we learnt a lot about the classics/ancient history generally from him. What I found difficult was GREEK which is why I didn't enjoy it. Nowadays, many years later, I wouldn't be able to read anything much in Greek. Since I enjoyed Latin, I thought I'd enjoy Greek too but I didn't.

At present, the plan is that dd will have Latin from year 4 (if we stay in the German school system) but unless she's desperate to do it, I plan on her doing some other language instead of Greek (all assuming we're still here when the time comes and not living in Japan or something).

Does your son read those Asterix comics in Latin?

sorry haven't read all thread

i can see it's finished anyway and you have made decision

but just to say, i did a history degree, and with poor latin my options for what I could study were reduced

latin and german are extreeeeeemely useful for any part of european history

obviously there are plenty of other places that have had history to study

Lilymaid, it is in England. I remember I principal of land law, for example. You own a property "usque ad coelum et ad infernos" (except for all the exceptions about mining and aerial photographs). But I learned that in the 1970's. Possibly the person who wrote the appreciation of Latin is also behind the times.

I vote for Latin too. Did it to 'A' level and it helped enormously with French and Spanish (both of which I also did to 'A' level. It also helps with English grammar, which is based on the Latin system. Most Latin scholars speak and write beautiful English.

ClarkKent what country is the school in?
"In Law, Latin helps you to understand legal language and terminology, since our system of law is based on Roman models;
"
It isn't in England and Wales and since the Woolf reforms most of the remaining Latin terms used in English law have been changed into English.

I understand now, thanks kathy. No, I wouldn't expect it to be at the same standard, I think it's easier for Italian speakers to get started on Latin as well.

I think I know what she means, Franca - that there is quite a high ratio of thinking to the number of words written down on a page, compared to primarily essay subjects.
Eg. you might spend an hour on a Latin translation that took up half a page or the same amount of time on writing a three-page essay.

I'm guessing that in England we didn't get to quite such a high standard in Latin as you would have done in Italy so we probably translated a lot less material in total than you, as well.

"Latin lessons involve very little writing"
sorry, at the risk of sounding snotty, what kind of Latin is it taught if you don't write? I remember that all I did in 5 yrs at high school was writing, translation after translation after translation.

I did Latin to 'O' level(Cambridge , "Caecilius est in atrio, Caecilius in atrio sedet ...") and because I didn't want to study either German or Ancient Greek, took Classical Studies for 1, possibly 2, years (no qualification) which was actually really interesting. We read plays in translation (Aristophanes was a hoot!) and looked at architecture etc. However having the understanding of Latin and Roman culture was very beneficial so I'd say do another year , then opt out if needs be.

Most of the others in the group were politely not thought up to taking German or Greek, and I did have to argue that I wanted to take it, but actually in retrospect, {whispers} my teachers were right , the German would have been come in more handy - heigh ho !

Not that I am blowing my own trumpet or anything.. or vain or anything.. or. Ok who am i kidding?!

My daughter - in yr 9 - just dropped Latin. She hated it although did not do badly at all. Is taking French and Spanish and is great at them. Just felt there were more enjoyable, more relevant topics she could choose.

I did not do Latin and did not do badly academically (even if I say so myself!)

I'd let him drop it tbh - he's being v sensible about his reasons for wanting to do so. Classics is FUN and if he's not enjoying the Latin, he will work harder in the classics. Don't want him to feel resentful, being made to do something that he doesn't want to do. Unless he has specific "A" levels planned, it really won't matter which GCSEs he does.

Don't see it as "dumbing down" at all - every GCSE is scored the same - an A in Classics will be "better" than a B in Latin.

And what a sensible young man your son sounds!

I used to love Classical Studies. Do they study ancient history or is it all mythology?

latin
latin
latin
latin

Nowt else

(The thickies in my school did that civilisation crap)

adn any subjetc that has to explicitly state that " it si FUN" need to be looked at VERY carefully.

i disagree wiht ehte latin hels you learn languages crap
i have learned three foreign languages iwht no latin
i think a total waste of time

I did Latin to A-level and 25 years later am planning to take an Open University course in it as part of the History degree I am doing. I think you should keep it on Tigermoth's DS - the first couple of years are the most boring so you have already done much of the hard work - the next few years will be more interesting as you are able to read more. If you are the sort of person who likes crossword puzzles and Sudoku Latin translations can be a lot of fun.
I am hoping to start a Latin club at my DDs' school next year - DD1 is keen to learn because she says she and her friends will be able to use it as a secret code - and that's not a bad idea!

This is what DS's Classics department says:

The fact is that a knowledge of Latin gives you enormous advantages:

In Law, Latin helps you to understand legal language and terminology, since our system of law is based on Roman models;
In Medicine, Latin and Greek provide the roots for terms used in anatomy, pathology, pharmacology and many other areas.
Oxford and Cambridge admissions tutors are constantly looking for ways to distinguish between applicants with straight A passes at A level, and are likely to give greater consideration to those who have Latin and Greek on their CV, since this means that:

they are sufficiently intelligent to handle what are still considered, and indeed proven* to be, some of the most difficult subjects on the school curriculum;
they have knowledge of the classical world, which gives them a broader and more secure context for contemporary studies;
they are the kind of students who seek out challenging and valuable lessons and are prepared to work hard, sometimes against the prevailing ethos of trendier, so-called 'soft options'.

LATIN ENHANCES YOUR CV

(and improves your chances of landing the job or university place you set your heart on)

There is no doubt that Latin is very highly regarded both by employers and by universities. Even though we hope to make the study of Latin as painless as possible, it is still viewed as a 'difficult' subject, which means that those who pursue it are thought to be more capable than most.

Furthermore, its rarity outside the public school system (not even all grammar schools continue to offer Latin) means that it brings extra prestige and distinction to your CV and university application. Of the boys who formed our first A level class in 2005-6, all but one applied to Oxford or Cambridge and at interview most of these were asked specifically about the fact that they were studying Latin. Even though none of them were actually applying for Classics courses, several of the interviews concentrated on Latin rather than the subject they were applying to read; and in every case they were made offers.

There is also strong evidence to suggest that the study of Latin of itself helps to improve your performance in many other subjects too...

LATIN GIVES YOU A HEAD START WITH ALL YOUR STUDIES

Latin develops your English

Your reading, writing and speaking of English is improved by studying Latin. It enriches your vocabulary, sharpens your grammar and instils a strong sense of organization.

Latin provides a solid foundation for the acquisition of other languages

Greek and Latin equip a person with the strongest single foundation for mastering Romance languages, modern inflected ones such as Russian and German, and even non-related tongues like Arabic, Chinese, and Japanese. Working with Latin and Greek broadens your notion of structures possible in languages other than English. In addition, Latin gives you a grip on about 80% of the vocabulary of the Romance languages ? French, Italian, Portuguese, Romanian, and Spanish.

Reading, writing, and translating Latin sharpens the mind

On account of their non-English word structure and sentence patterns, the classical languages have for centuries helped to train young people to be observant, accurate, analytical, and logical. They develop the mind in demanding and practical ways. Classics graduates are hired by firms that need people who can define and identify problems, think on their feet, and arrive at sound and creative solutions.

The civilisations of Greece and Rome link us with contemporary cultures around the world
A background in the classical civilisations helps to make you aware of customs, values, and ideas that we have in common with our neighbours in Eastern and Western Europe and with the cultures of North and South America. We share many concepts in government, religion, art, literature, and economic systems.

Acquaintance with ancient cultures promotes tolerance and understanding
A person who is aware of the rich and varied culture of the Greeks and Romans is more likely to accept the differing customs and values of other peoples today. In studying of ancient civilizations, you encounter exotic and extreme customs, which were not static, but evolved over the centuries. If you are familiar with diversity, change, and longevity in your own culture, you will be more inclined to respect the views, ideologies, religions and economic systems of foreign peoples, and to appreciate cultures that differ from your own.

LATIN IS FUN!

Latin lessons involve very little writing.

You only need to learn to understand written Latin; this makes progress much faster than in modern languages, where you also have to learn to write, listen and speak.

Since you do not learn to speak Latin, there is no oral examination.

There is no coursework requirement at GCSE or A level.

You will use a huge variety of resources, including video and computer packages. You will also watch some great DVDs in class!