Private School Worth It?

For me, paying for private schools would have been an utter waste of money. DS had autism and was supported as his large state school. He is now doing his first (and only) choice of highly-specific university course.

DD was a hard worker and did really well academically at the same school. She had lots of opportunities to become involved in sports and clubs and attended many inter-school events and competitions, as well as having lots of opportunities to perform musically. I'm not sure any private school could have bettered her experience. She's now in her first choice of course in her first choice RG Uni.

I would have spent thousands of pounds for no added value. I also used to come across privately educated kids (from different schools) in some of my DC's clubs and they were always the loud, braying, undisciplined ones. I wouldn't have paid money to produce that sort of behaviour.

even in my day there was one teacher who was well known for 'tips' on what might come up in the MFL oral exams. By coincidence this was exactly what allegedly happened a couple of years ago at another well known private school.........The girls were told to prepare model answers, which were corrected by staff, and told to learn them by heart."

This would never happen in a state school

Xenia-I would have thought that allowing tests at school and teacher's reports to determine who gets extra time would make it even easier to get extra time as parents wouldn't even have to pay for outside' help'.

I agree people may see cheating as even more of a reason to go private. As you say the reduction in coursework may reduce it to some extent but in fact the recent private school cases have involved giving pupils advance knowledge of exam questions rather than coursework (where it is very hard to prove cheating).

Re Oxbridge I think that historically only pretty selective private schools have decent admission rates i.e after the top 40 private schools the Oxbridge admission rate tends to fall below 15% of pupils. And its likely to fall even further as the pressure to give more 'contextual offers' increases. I am actually convinced my DC now have got a better Oxbridge chance applying from a state school than they would in a private school where things are getting tougher unless you are doing a subject with not much competition (classics, MFL etc).Indeed somewhat to my surprise even our local comp seems to be getting an increasing number of Oxbridge offers.

Private school is only an option for the richest 15% of the population
and half of them choose not to use it.

I was sent to private school because at the time and where I grew up the State options were pretty awful.

My kids went state because
(a) I could not afford private
(b) the state options round here are great and stress free

There are lots of kids at private schools in this county - many of them boarders who do not come from round here.

BUT
To answer the Op's question
IT DEPENDS ON THE INDIVIDUAL CHILD

The rules definitely did change. I was told the psychologist's report was not the key thing any more but instead tests at school and views of your teachers in the school. I suppose that might have made it easier not harder to get extra time although not in our case.

If there is cheating - which I have not seen in private schools who play up " play up and play the game" even if you get zero in everything and get thrown out for being an idle slacker - then I suppose a paying parent might regard that as even more reason to pay fees. I would certainly not pay feels if there were cheating going on. As 100% of the children from my son's private school who applied failed to get into Oxbridge and no one got above B in my son's university subject in his whole year I don't think there can be much cheating going on that school somehow... laughing I type.

Lack of course work is a good thing as it's all down to the exam. Given less credit for people suffering illness or deaths might help too as those things can sometimes be faked.

Xenia/Kestrel-of course some state schools cheat as well (especially in coursework) although individual state school teachers don't have the same incentive as those at private schools to go the extra mile. Private school teachers are under great pressure to obtain the highest grades for their pupils and the schools implicated in cheating last year included Eton and Winchester where you wouldn't have thought the pupils needed extra help. And if its going on at top schools like these what do you think is happening at schools which don't have the same pulling power? In fact private school exam cheating has a long history -even in my day there was one teacher who was well known for 'tips' on what might come up in the MFL oral exams.By coincidence this was exactly what allegedly happened a couple of years ago at another well known private school (Queens Gate) when according to the press a teacher "gave the A-level French class the questions that would be asked at the oral exams. The girls were told to prepare model answers, which were corrected by staff, and told to learn them by heart."

Floottoot -private schools cheat by encouraging pupils to get assessed by private 'educational psychologists' etc who are well aware that they are being paid/have a business incentive to provide a particular diagnosis. The problem is increasing as the article from the Telegraph a few months ago I am pasting below indicates. Some friends in one well known local private school even attributed their DC's relatively poor exam results to the fact that almost everyone else had had extra time.

2017 ARTICLE

The number of children getting extra time in their exams has risen by 36 per cent in the past four years, official figures show, as teachers are accused of bending the rules by claiming increasing numbers of students are "special needs".

Now one in six of all GCSE and A-level candidates are awarded 25 per cent extra time for their exams, according to Ofqual.
Critics say the figures “make a mockery” of the system and undermine credibility in public examinations.
Ofqual acknowledged that the use of extra time has increased in recent years, adding that disabled students are “entitled to a reasonable adjustment”.
However, the exam watchdog said there was widespread variation in the proportion of students at particular schools and colleges who are granted extra time.
They said they intend to contact centre which make abnormally high or low applications for extra time, and encourage them to review their approach.
Last year, 223,405 students were granted extra time to complete their exams, compared to 164,390 in 2013/14. Schools can apply to the Joint Council for Qualifications (JCQ) to request extra time for a student on a variety on grounds. These include learning difficulties, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) or a mental health condition .
Professor Alan Smithers, director of the education and employment centre at the University of Buckingham, said: “Extra time does confer an advantage. As parents and schools have become more aware that extra time can be claimed and that more and more candidates are getting it, more are trying for it.”
He added that requesting extra time is “an open goal for both pushy parents and pushy schools”.

Chris McGovern, director of the Campaign for Real Education and a former Government advisor, said the figures "make a mockery" of the system and "and undermines credibility and belief” in public examinations.

"It is out of all proportion – the fact is that a sixth of the children in the country do not have special needs,” he said. “We have redefined it as if you have pushy parents you are special needs".

An Ofqual spokesperson said: “The use of extra time in GCSE and A level exams has increased in recent years. Disabled students are entitled to a reasonable adjustment when taking their exams and it is important that appropriate adjustments are made for them.
“We have looked at the proportion of students at individual schools and colleges in England who are given extra time. Some have relatively high numbers of approvals compared with the average, and some have very few.

I have been happy to pay and it was worth it and am glad my parents did.

i have never come across cheating in any private schools mine might go to. i would rather they utterly failed than there were the slightest hint of the cheating of any kind. I would not like it suggested most private school children get good results because of cheating as I don't think that is the norm. Also the extra time thing has utterly changed in the last few years so much so that my son's school said there was not even any point in applying for it even though he probably should have had it.

On appeals you can get a lower mark on an appeal so it's quite a risky business. Not something you do and are sure of a higher grade by any means.

Just pick what you prefer if you can afford it. I was happy to pay and plenty of full time working women who could afford fees are more than happy with local state schools. that's fine. We live in country with some choices.

There are lots of reasons I feel it was worth paying fees. I paid my last set last summer but am choosing to fund the children at unviersity without debt so it is not the end of the road yet......

Some private schools might “cheat” but I bet some state schools do too.

They absolutely do, as I can attest from personal experience. I am awaiting this year's GCSE results at our local secondary with interest, now that they are no longer able to massively cheat on coursework.

I went to private school, my brother went to a Grammar and my sister to a comp. We all ended up with the same higher education outcomes and roughly career success. (Very different fields).

I wish my parents had put the money they spent on my school in a savings fund for their care now they are elderly and frail, or Uni / housing funds for their grandchildren.

(None of us are rich, we are scruffy middle class, never had kitchen or bathroom ‘done ‘ )

DSs private school tests the whole cohort on entry to the school and again at 6th form. Some parents of new 6 form entrants are shocked when they discover their child has been flagged up for quaoifiying for extra time as they had no idea beforehand. This would imply that not every school tests quite so rigorously. This is not cheating or even manipulating but would result in a higher number of pupils having extra time.

Some private schools might “cheat” but I bet some state schools do too.

*stateschoolparent", how exactly do private schools abuse the extra time issue?
I've recently had cause to read through the entire JEC guidelines and the application process for extra time and other access arrangements seems quite involved.

Actually private education or state is a tricky question. My daughter who was a shy , undetermined girl entered private boarding at 11 and will come out a more aware and determined.

To be honest some of her teachers were inspiring. She loves History as her first year teacher created that inspiration for her. Which I am particularly happy with. In her GCSE she had a fantastic teacher. Yes we are a stereotypical Asian family. So my daughter is expected to do well in the STEM subjects. I disagree with many comments that private kids are spoon fed. My daughter has a horrendous physics teacher for GCSE and she has had to go to another teacher for help and use other study aids. Hopefully she will pass.
Originally the ethos of the school was what we wanted. A nice school not academically brilliant but caring able to bring the best out of my daughter. The head left and the ethos changed. So parents be aware even if you find the school that best fits your daughter it may not last.
If you are talking connections you will make friends but I think my family connections would work better for my daughter than any she had made at school.
So what did private offer that state didn't? A safe environment for a shy girl. Did she enjoy it?

Lookingforspace its not as simple as that as private schools are much better at manipulating the exam system. This takes a number of forms including :

1. Outright cheating by doing coursework or giving advance notice of the contents of an exam as witnessed by last year's scandal at three top private schools (which is likely to be just the tip of the iceberg )
2. A much higher percentage of pupils in private schools being given extra time due to being diagnosed with dyslexia or other learning disorders .The exams watchdog Ofqual suggested the difference could be because private schools are more' willing' to find students entitled to more exam time but the system has undoubtedly been abused by some schools (no names mentioned but I can think of one or two).
3. Private schools being far more likely to appeal exam results.

IMO people are blinded by the results of a few super selective private schools but outside say the top 40 schools the actual education provided by most private schools is now relatively poor value for money given the fees being charged which is why many former private school parents (myself included) go state and top up with private tutors instead. There are a couple of reasons for the vast fee increases, the first being that the schools appear to be obsessed with having the best facilities as if they were hotels rather than educational establishments. At some schools there seem to be permanent building works going on! Secondly the more rigorous requirement for private schools to demonstrate a public benefit is in my view a nonsense as they are clearly providing a public benefit by saving the state £6000 pa per child and providing employment/ educational choice/diversity of subjects studied etc etc. However some schools feel they need to show a public benefit by making bursaries available out of current parents' fees rather than out of reserves/donations which of course pushes fees up even more out of reach of normal MC families.

The study everyone keeps referring to is basically saying that state schools aren’t as good at getting kids to reach their potential so whilst it is regularly being used to ask what the point of private schooling is, in actual fact it’s also giving you the answer. It states that if you look at 2 students with the same Alevel grades, one from each sector, the one from the state sector will often get better degree results. What some people aren’t seeing in the research is that it’s telling you that the state educated kid with ABB is actually cleverer than the privately educated kid with ABB but their grades are the same because the state educated kid didn’t reach their potential. So their degree marks are more in line with the private school kid who got Alevels AAB or maybe AAA because they are as clever as them but unlike them they didn’t get the opportunity to achieve to their potential.

So it’s not saying that state school kids do better, but rather they do better that they were ie they’re now reaching their potential.

I think it can be, but there are a lot of factors. If the choice of schools includes one that seems like a good fit for your child then it can be a good move. If local state school is a good school (based on what local parents say not Ofsted) then might not be worth bothering.

At secondary level a good state secondary will offer much the same as a good independent school. Right down to Ski trips and sports facilities. We swapped a feeder school to an independent school with a drama studio and orchestra for a primary a mile from a secondary with same facilities which is where we’ve ended up.

Pastoral and SENCO card are much better anc it’s free.

stateschoolparent

I'm not disputing the studies that indicate that state school pupils outperform independent school pupils with similar A levels. My point is that, even so, overall, independent school pupils outperform state school pupils because, on average, independent school pupils come into university having achieved higher A levels.

So, if you believe university results should correlate with subsequent achievement, the point you choose to emphasize, by itself, does not necessarily imply that the (over)representation of independently educated people in rich/powerful positions must be the result of further bias.

Your conclusion that there is bias may be correct, but it is not supported by the point you cited per se.

User149 study after study has shown that state school pupils outperform private pupils with similar A levels at university. This is as one would expect if you consider they have achieved the same A level results with far less spent on their secondary education (say £6000 per year) . Indeed when I was at uni far more private school pupils got poor degrees than their state school counterparts . Here is an article from the TES earlier this year (2018):

Further evidence of comprehensive school students’ “significant advantage” that makes it more likely that they get a good degree from a UK university compared with similar students from private schools is presented by a new study.
Analysis of the degrees achieved by nearly 9,000 graduates of one English university, which controlled for A-level grades, found that state school leavers were more likely to achieve a first or a 2:1 than their private school counterparts in seven out of the 11 entry qualification
For example, considering full-time students who graduated in 2010, 2011 and 2012, 95 per cent of state school students who got AAAA at A level got a good degree, compared with 91.1 per cent of their private school peers. Among students who got AAB, 82.7 per cent of state school students got a first or 2:1, compared with 80.7 per cent of private school leavers.
The researchers, led by Steven Jones, senior lecturer in education at the University of Manchester, conducted further modelling that confirmed that “coming from a comprehensive school leads to a significant advantage” in terms of degree attainment over students from independent schools, as well as grammar schools and sixth-form colleges. The researchers stress that entry qualifications are the strongest predictor of success at university.
“Students from state schools are more likely to become high achievers than those from independent schools who enter university with the same grades,” the researchers write in Research in Post-compulsory Education. “We see this as evidence that the full academic potential of high-ability state school children is not always realised until those children reach university.”
This is not the first study to find that state school students have an advantage over their private school peers at university. In 2015 a study by the University of Cambridge’s examination arm, Cambridge Assessment, found that private school leavers at Russell Group universities were about a third less likely to achieve a first or a 2:1 than state school students with similar entry grades.
Another study by the Higher Education Funding Council for England also found that state school students were more likely to graduate with the top classifications than private school students with similar backgrounds.
Dr Jones and his colleagues say that the advantage of studying just a single university, unlike the earlier studies, is that it minimises the variation “caused by disparate universities having different degree-awarding regulations”.
However, Chris Ramsey, joint chair of the university subcommittee of the Headmasters’ and Headmistresses’ Conference, which represents independent schools, said that studies of undergraduate performance were “notoriously difficult to keep in proportion”.
“By far the strongest predictor of university outcomes is prior attainment,” said Mr Ramsey, headmaster of Whitgift School.
“A small number of mid-performing A-level students do ‘better’ than would be expected at university when they come from some types of maintained school – around 1 per cent of all state school entrants to higher education,” Mr Ramsey said. But top performers from all school types “overwhelmingly gain outcomes at university exactly in line with their 18-plus attainment”, he added.
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stateschoolparent - I should have added that bright state school pupils at RG universities outperform private school pupils with similar A level results so the fact that the professions are dominated by people from private schools means that entry to the professions is biased in some way.

You choose to ignore the fact that more independent school pupils get 1st and upper 2nd degrees than state school pupils. As a HEFCE spokesperson conceded, the stronger degree results of independent school pupils “is explained by the different distribution of A-level achievement between state and independent school graduates - independent school students on average achieve better A-levels than state school students.”

The bias of which you speak may well exist, but the point you cite doesn't provide any support for it.

stateschoolparent - I would tend to agree with you about kids, especially academic ones, finding friends with similar backgrounds and values in state schools, especially where there is streaming. Where I think it DOES make a difference is with children who are academically average or struggling where they end up in a lower ability stream with kids who are disruptive, unsupported by parents, turned off by school etc. That's when the small class sizes and nuture of an independent school can help.
At ours there are 3 maths sets, with the top two targeting A*/A grades and the 'bottom' set targeting A/B grades. The class sizes are a reverse pyramid, with about 15-20 in the top sets and as few as 5 in the 'bottom' one. DS2 had a huge lack of confidence over maths and was in the bottom set. He has come on in leaps and bounds and has had lots of almost 1-to-1 tuition. Now he says he 'enjoys' maths because he suddenly 'gets' it.

Up until recently I have only ever known state education, both for myself and my kids. However, having just gone down the independent route, I'm am gobsmacked in terms of the difference in access you have as a parent, and how the school have fully taken responsibility for my DC's education. But I guess that's what you pay the money for - they are businesses after all!

As others have said, I don't expect DC's grades to be that different at an indie, but that's not why I have sent my kids there... and it's not for the connections they will supposedly make. Purely practical reasons.

Wonderwine -I agree there are no right answers. The concerns private school parents have about their children falling in with the "wrong crowd'' at comps are generally misguided in that -particularly in schools with banding according to academic ability- you tend to find that most children's friends come from a similar background to them. This is the case even in inner city comps. Ironically some of the worst choices of partners I have known have been made by girls who attended girls only private schools who seem to be unduly attracted to the 'wrong crowd' having not being exposed to them at school!

What makes me laugh is that I've seen people choose independent school to 'protect' little johnny from getting in with the 'wrong crowd' and then by the time Johnny is 16/17 and 'big Johnny' they're desperately enrolling him onto NCS for the summer to give him experience 'outside of his bubble' and make him a bit 'more streetwise' .

There are no right answers. You have to do what you think is feel is right for your child at a particular point in time, given the choices of schools in your area. And of course there is no control - you have no idea how the options you didn't choose would have turned out!

Have been/used both.
Academically I don’t think there is a great difference. Plus spoon feeding isn’t a good idea long term.
Even extracurricular you cannot do everything.
It is for the way of speaking/working/behaving in certain scenarios that you notice a bit of difference.

I didn't read the whole tread. The fees are ridiculously high nowadays, in London at least. I wouldn't pay for an average or below average private school if an outstanding state school is available.

I should have added that bright state school pupils at RG universities outperform private school pupils with similar A level results so the fact that the professions are dominated by people from private schools means that entry to the professions is biased in some way. My suggestion is that this is not really because employers are pro private schools but rather because wealthier MC families have always used connections to land their kids jobs.