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Original poster

Maths teachers should be paid more than PE teachers

160 replies

noblegiraffe · 22/04/2018 12:47

Maths teachers should be paid more than PE teachers because there is a critical shortage of maths teachers and we have plenty of PE teachers.

What would people think of this? It was a topic that came up on the teacher polling app Teacher Tapp a while back, with mixed opinions.

I’m not saying that maths teachers are more important than PE teachers, or have a more difficult job (I’d rather teach bottom set Y9 than supervise rugby in the winter). But as a retention tool? Some say that it’s already happening with teachers of shortage subjects more likely to be waved up the pay scale, or hired on a higher point or given a meaningless TLR, but it’s all ad-hoc.

The DfE throw money at people to train in shortage subjects, but then there’s no extra money to retain them. Although in maths next year maths students will be getting a retention bonus after 3 and 5 years, the initial bursary has dropped significantly and NQTs could well still be starting on M1, and there is nothing for teachers already in the system.

What do people think? (Obviously I say maths because I’m a maths teacher, but the same argument would go for other serious shortage subjects). Should market forces determine subject pay scales?

OP posts:
Original poster
noblegiraffe · 22/04/2018 13:21

Thats setting teachers against others before they even get to the classrooms.

It already happens with the bursaries for teacher training, determined by teacher shortage as a recruitment measure. It doesn’t seem to put off PE teachers applying for teacher training.

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Needmoresleep · 22/04/2018 13:15

It is usual in many other parts of the public sector to pay people in shortage specialisms more.

A qualified and experienced maths teacher in London will not only have the option of parallel careers requiring similar skills (accountancy, say) but also of private schools and, as importantly, of the large number of sixth form tutorial colleges preparing overseas students for UK University entry. Plus lots of scope for renumerative private tutoring. Tutorial colleges can be great with small classes and motivated students, and also flexibile timetables with no additional school duties. (Wednesday afternoons on the golf course etc.) Top London private schools may offer teacher accomodation and a different working environment. My observation is that some of the most talented maths teachers in the private sector have, or would have, struggled in the state sector. And perhaps that is not just about sector. Teaching at Kings Maths school, say, allows a good mathematician to spend more time teaching FM and STEP to able pupils, quite different to helping a discouraged pupil to get their all-important GCSE pass.

Whether maths teachers should be paid more is not really the question. Instead the question is whether it is possible to recruit maths teachers if you don't pay them more.

RowenaDedalus · 22/04/2018 13:13

We need to do something to recruit maths teachers. My school is missing 6 maths teachers. It's ridiculous. I teach a subject which is on the phase out - I would retrain if there was help available. I wouldn't want to do a poor job!

user1471450935 · 22/04/2018 13:05

Not a teacher,
But our northern underfunded comprehensive, has cut PE teacher numbers, especially male, to the bone, we now have only 2 full time male teachers, but 3 or 4 sets, female teachers are covering, they are good, but not great for 11-16 old males.
We don't seem to be short of maths teachers either, we have 8 maths sets, all taught by fully qualified maths teachers.
Its non Maths, English, Science and History/Geography posts which are being culled to lack of funding, which tends to leave "fun" subjects in short supply.
I think all Teachers should be paid more and have collective bargaining/national pay structure, though that's my personal views as a parent only.

AlonsoTigerHeart · 22/04/2018 13:04

Thats setting teachers against others before they even get to the classrooms.

Moussemoose · 22/04/2018 12:59

Divide and conquer.

Once teachers negotiate salary individually wages will go down for the majority.

Some subject will become 'sink' subject with low paid, low motivated teaches behaviour will deteriorate and this will spread across the whole school.

Hey if we negotiate individually some schools should pay more than others. You could get paid more if parents donate to the school. Come on parents chip in for the teachers....

Everyone in the staff room hates each other, no pulling together.

You can stick your sports teams and extra curricular, get those highly paid maths teachers to do it.

Think about the long term ramifications; this is a ludicrous idea.

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 22/04/2018 12:59

Retention is worse in shortage subjects:

The report calculated that:

about 10.4% of science teachers left the profession each year
10.3% of maths teachers
10.2% of those teaching languages
10% of technology teachers
English was just behind, with 9.7% leaving each year
These rates were higher than other subjects - for example, 5.9% of PE teachers left each year.

Of those teaching arts subjects such as art, drama and music, 8.4% left each year, alongside 8.5% of those teaching humanities such as history and geography.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-39934526

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Original poster
noblegiraffe · 22/04/2018 12:56

This isn’t a workload argument though, every subject has its pluses and minuses on that front, it’s simply about scarcity.

If it was about workload, primary should get paid the most, but bizarrely there are still people queuing up to be primary teachers (national picture at least), despite lack of bursary incentives and crap workload.

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AalyaSecura · 22/04/2018 12:54

How much of the shortage is due to difficulties in recruiting subjects like maths, and how much is retention - do maths teachers leave at significantly higher rates?

Celticlassie · 22/04/2018 12:51

English teachers should be paid more because the marking workload is higher.

[backs away quietly]