Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Original poster

Maths teachers should be paid more than PE teachers

160 replies

noblegiraffe · 22/04/2018 12:47

Maths teachers should be paid more than PE teachers because there is a critical shortage of maths teachers and we have plenty of PE teachers.

What would people think of this? It was a topic that came up on the teacher polling app Teacher Tapp a while back, with mixed opinions.

I’m not saying that maths teachers are more important than PE teachers, or have a more difficult job (I’d rather teach bottom set Y9 than supervise rugby in the winter). But as a retention tool? Some say that it’s already happening with teachers of shortage subjects more likely to be waved up the pay scale, or hired on a higher point or given a meaningless TLR, but it’s all ad-hoc.

The DfE throw money at people to train in shortage subjects, but then there’s no extra money to retain them. Although in maths next year maths students will be getting a retention bonus after 3 and 5 years, the initial bursary has dropped significantly and NQTs could well still be starting on M1, and there is nothing for teachers already in the system.

What do people think? (Obviously I say maths because I’m a maths teacher, but the same argument would go for other serious shortage subjects). Should market forces determine subject pay scales?

OP posts:
Moussemoose · 22/04/2018 21:28

So we improve the situation for ALL teachers. We stand together, we point out how unfair it is. We join with each other and do our best for the whole of education.

I'm not signing songs, I'm campaigning and arguing and debating and writing letters and fighting for all of education. All of education, for all teaches and all pupils.

If you divide us you weaken us. You are buying into their narrative, by posing the question you are making it legitimate.

I don't know you, but I know the questions you ask, I know what you post about and I am extremely disappointed that you would post something as divisive as this.

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 22/04/2018 21:12

In fact I will stand on picket lines, and watch you and your ilk cross them

You don’t know me at all, this thread isn’t about me and I was quite clear in my OP that I didn’t think one teacher was more important or had a more difficult job than the other.

But while you’re holding hands and singing songs about community, thousands of children don’t have qualified maths teachers and the situation is getting worse.

OP posts:
Bashstreetmum · 22/04/2018 20:56

Perhaps we need to appreciate that we are teaching children first and foremost rather than subjects which may level the playing field somewhat. I do understand however that the government demands results in what they believe are the 'more academic' subjects at the expense of a more holistic education no matter what they profess. This sadly is their shortsightedness. It would be a shame to subscribe to a hierarchical notion of subjects and reward the people who teach them. Teaching a certain subject does not make a better or more worthwhile teacher. Children's needs stretch way beyond understanding equations, photosynthesis and appreciating poetry. All subjects are of value as are the people who teach them. When we validate all teachers for what they teach we in turn validate children for what they are good at and passionate about. Therefore compensation should be equal because we need to be skilled in teaching children not just content. Over the years I have not needed to use many of these so called more important subjects to the degree they were taught but I have needed many of the other skills and the knowledge sets I gained from the other subjects and activities I engaged with in school.

Piggywaspushed · 22/04/2018 20:35

This is why we need maths teachers! To help us to not just be befuddled by the numbers!!

Moussemoose · 22/04/2018 20:34

The point is we work together. Schools are communities. Everyone has a role to play we work together. Each student is different and special, with different and special needs. We value each student and we value each subject.

If we start to say this is more important, that counts for more, we will pay you more, the that all disintegrates.

Do you really want schools to reflect the market economy. Think about it for a minute. So you really want subjects to be valued by economic necessity. Screw art, screw drama, PE - what a joke.....

You know, you know students who live for PE or Food Tech. You know them, you teach them but you don't value their teachers?

The disaffected student who is kept in school because he is on the football team - have you not taught that lad?

But YOU the almighty maths teacher deserve more money than the PE coach who drives him to games.

Market forces - 'all praise to the market and fuck the kids' I'm not signing up to that. In fact I will stand on picket lines, and watch you and your ilk cross them, while I fight for schools to remain as communities supporting each other.

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 22/04/2018 20:12

is science not, in fact, miles ahead?

In terms of straight numbers, yes, but science teachers make up 20% of the workforce and 18% of heads, humanities teachers are 8.3% of the workforce and 14.6% of heads.

OP posts:
Original poster
noblegiraffe · 22/04/2018 20:05

*Well, there we are noble that's who we need to attract. People with ethics, who love their subject and are capable of working with young people.^

Well that would be the ideal, wouldn’t it, piggy. Unfortunately teaching-as-a-vocation isn’t really cutting the mustard and things are reaching (have reached?) crisis point so perhaps we need to do teaching-as-a-job?

I’m not particularly motivated by money, but the PP who characterises people who are interested in work that is financially rewarding as greedy money-grabbers isn’t being particularly realistic about the situation. 8 years of pay cuts and being paid below the market rate - you don’t need to be particularly ‘greedy’ to think that’s a bad deal.

OP posts:
Vietnammark · 22/04/2018 19:58

I believe salaries of PE teachers and maths teachers should be the same, however, supplements and other variables should be used to enable the employer to get the mix of teachers that they require.

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 22/04/2018 19:58

perhaps everyone hates maths teachers because some of them start divisive threads like this?

That would be a weird extrapolation.

OP posts:
BoneyBackJefferson · 22/04/2018 19:58

Whats funny is the amount of people that take the tax free bursary and never set foot inside the classroom after they have completed the course.

Take the money and run.

Piggywaspushed · 22/04/2018 19:55

Well, there we are noble that's who we need to attract. People with ethics, who love their subject and are capable of working with young people.

Piggywaspushed · 22/04/2018 19:54

Oops, just realised I missed off an AH in my headcount. Head of science. Physicist.

I wonder also if it's the excitement of finding people willing to do the timetable. Which most arts type teachers would run a mile from.

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 22/04/2018 19:52

but why did you become a teacher and hang around long enough to get to UPS?

Because my previous job was boring and troubled me ethically. Also, at the time pay was reasonable, the pension was fab and I like maths. I had zero experience of working with young people and no real idea what I was getting into. I stuck around because it’s not boring and I like the kids.

OP posts:
Piggywaspushed · 22/04/2018 19:49

Managed to read the table. Unless I am being dim , is science not, in fact, miles ahead?

Piggywaspushed · 22/04/2018 19:44

Can't read that table : too small. It certainly used to be the case that geography = SLT. I think the issue now though is that to retain STEM ers, they are (sometimes over)promoted.

I think heads also promote people like them . My head is a physicist. All three deputies are physicist. Two further AHs are physics/ chem. I went to an interview where the head was a English specialist and her SLT did have rather a lot of English specialists.

P0ndLife · 22/04/2018 19:43

Maybe the shortage is more to do with less crossover between the skills you need for maths and the skills you need to teach?
A PE type will likely be used to teamwork, an English graduate used to communicating ideas - both needed to teach.
Maybe less maths grads are capable of taking charge of 30 fourteen year olds?
I think a Maths Secondary teaching degree would be good, rather than focusing on people who do a trad maths degree

duckling84 · 22/04/2018 19:40

Teaching always made me a bit Hmm. I cant imagine any other career where a trainee gets paid MORE then they will once qualified (bursary for maths is 25k yet starting wage is £22917). I'd get more in a call centre

Piggywaspushed · 22/04/2018 19:40

To be fair, I haven't stumbled across many PE teachers on MN.

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 22/04/2018 19:39

Humanities teachers are the ones hoovering up promotions, look at how disproportionately represented they are!

Maths teachers should be paid more than PE teachers
OP posts:
RaindropsAndSparkles · 22/04/2018 19:38

Fireplace the problems start from about age 7/8. In a competitive world children need specialist expert teaching early on. What made private worth it? From age 8 the dc got specialist maths, science, french, english, history, geography and ancient history/latin/classics.

The whole system needs to step up. Mine didn't get Oxford and Cambridge because they were cleverer. They got it because they were bright and well educated by teachers not expected to be jacks or jills of all trades or social workers and who were able to maintain the respect of patents and pupils.

Moussemoose · 22/04/2018 19:36

@Cherrypi perhaps everyone hates maths teachers because some of them start divisive threads like this?

Moussemoose · 22/04/2018 19:34

Oh yeah and how about this for a confusing point:

Market forces - or educating well rounded civilised individuals?

I want to educate well rounded people, not grub around with my nose in the trough. You?

Cherrypi · 22/04/2018 19:33

I saw a school advertising additional ppa time for staff. I thought that was an interesting idea instead of more money. Still not getting me to return to maths teaching though. Also everyone hates maths and tells you so. Kids, parents, other teachers.

Piggywaspushed · 22/04/2018 19:32

Yes, but why did you become a teacher and hang around long enough to get to UPS? You can't be unique! although the fact that you appear to be interested in education makes you different from any maths teacher I know in RL

Walkingdeadfangirl · 22/04/2018 19:32

Thank you for the perspective on PE Piggywaspushed, I did say my view was only from the outside.