Maths teachers should be paid more than PE teachers

This is an odd way of describing part time working? You only get part time wages and often have to deal with crap like not being allowed to apply for promotion, be left out of the loop, be treated like a second class teacher and possibly have to put up with a crap timetable

I think many thousands of part-time workers would disagree with you there noble, including me. For those who want to work part time, the opportunity to do so is something that is very much appreciated, and the lack of part-time teaching opportunities has been very much in the news recently. It is one of the contributing factors to poor teacher retention.

For me, working part-time (in a senior analytical role at a university) is what enables me to be a school governor, as well as fulfilling other volunteering roles. I get much greater satisfaction from that than I would from being paid a full-time wage and being offered promotions to more senior (managerial) positions that I don't really want.

Yes I agree. They should have theirbloans repaid but it should be on a sliding scale linked to length of service in the public sector.

And the same for Doctors, nurses etc, anyone working in front line professional public services should have their loans paid- not just be exempt from repayment but have them paid.

I think that the government should pay the student loan repayments for each year that you are teaching in a state school. It is 9% of salary and would be a good incentive for retention. Too many new teachers leave the profession within first 5 years or go to teach abroad to get larger salaries.

Haven't read the whole thread so apologies if these points have been made already. I think a "golden hello" for shortage subjects is reasonable, and I would go so far as to say their student loans should be paid off (though gradually, and only if they stay teaching in state schools). This would encourage anyone wavering between teaching a shortage subject or a non-shortage subject to make the 'right' choice if they're in a position to choose. But otherwise I would keep maths and PE teachers on the same scales for all the obvious reasons.

Of course the other way teachers of shortage subjects can be given an advantage is further down the line when they might want to consider part-time working. I'm a school governor and 3 of the roles we advertised as full time for September have now been filled by applicants who requested part-time instead. In fact we are now advertising for a part-time maths teacher, to make up the FTE of the one we've already recruited! In contrast, I think we'd be much less likely to ever recruit a part-time PE teacher because whenever we advertise PE roles we get plenty of applicants willing to work full time.

quite honestly i think the vast majority of PE teachers should be taken out , put up against the wall, and shot.

Are you suggesting that when situations are bad employers can ignore, policies, contracts, negotiated settlements, national agreements etc?

Are they not already? Shocking!

The last school I taught in couldn't hold onto Maths teachers. In the end they asked staff if anyone wanted to do a training course and change subject. Several staff did - Science teachers mostly but one Business Studies teacher and one History teacher. Then they got a bit of Maths on their timetables. It seemed to work quite well. Also, every member of SLT can teach Maths without training right At least, that seems to happen in most places...

Definitely in the summer. In the winter when it's cold, I'm not sure that the PE teachers don't deserve more. :D

I have read this thread with interest, from the perspective of someone considering training as a maths teacher in the near future (2019 start).

If I go ahead with this plan, it will not be for the money. I am currently a 40-something SAHM and privileged in that we do not depend on my earnings. I could take my abilities and qualifications elsewhere and earn much more than teachers.

Despite thinking I would really enjoy teaching maths, I am not sure if I should go for it though. I am decidedly not interested in martyring myself. All the money in the world would not entice me to martyr myself. Increasing maths teachers' payscale would not make it more likely for me to take up a PGCE, nor would it make it more likely for me to stay in teaching long-term once qualified.
If I do start a PGCE, my mid-term plan would be to work part-time, cherry-picking my jobs (e.g. not too much commute, and hours that work for me/our family). If I couldn't find a job that suited, I would just not work (or not as a maths teacher). A higher pay scale would not make me stay in/take a job. The workload/conditions would.

Piggy, I don't disagree. Pressures on teacher recruitment and retention are more acute in London, but exist everywhere. There are also different pressures in the private sector. (A good privae school head in London really earns their salary.) The grass is not always greener. However I have observed two key trends.

1. Movement from state to private. Rarely the other way round.
2. Movement of teachers out of London once their second child is born. Or to non teaching jobs.

The one thing though is that private schools have more flexibility to recruit (schools we know have been willing to train new maths and science teachers on the job, often sucessfully) and to retain. I assume the reduced Union presence allows what is an effective switch from PE staff to specialised sports coaches. Effectively the question asked by OP.

Different approaches, different outcomes. The state sector may retain things teachers find important, but the private sector can be better placed to deliver high quality maths and sport.

My DH works in a private school. they aren't all like the ones (in London) that you describe. The amount he gets paid more than a state school teacher on mainscale is actually negligible nowadays. He has a few more free periods than a state colleague would but works later. All staff are expected to do some sort of extra curricular activity , the unions have no presence at all, and he does loads of cover. the grass is not greener. He constantly complains about behaviour. They can be faddish , too. The one thing he has less of is data tracking and the pressures arising from that.

True, people tend not to leave in droves, perhaps out of fear of what they hear about the state sector , but they also have terrible trouble recruiting. Frequently, there is one applicant for a maths post.

Twins I dont disagree. However private schools do provide a refuge for a number of teachers who enjoy teaching but find some of the ancillary stuff, like complex classroom control, difficult. I suspect it may be particularly true of talented mathematicians who love sharing their enthusiasm for the STEP/FM stuff but who find the "must get a GCSE pass" teaching unrewarding. And obviously those who are struggling to survive on national pay scales but can command better pay/conditions in other sectors. (Not just independent, but also tutorial colleges and overseas.)

In my experience (and I include myself here) plenty of state school teachers object, in principle, to independent education. I left mainstream school last summer for a variety of reasons (money wasn't one of them) and never even considered looking at the independent schools in my area, despite the fact that in my subject, independent schools have amazing resources and facilities.

Twins. They do when it is a case of move or quit. In particular we came across several maths and science teachers, perhaps confirming to a stereotype, who appeared to have struggled to control classes in the state sector. The pupils attitude you describe. Often they were some of the most inspirational teachers DC had. They may not have quite had the organisational or parent communication skills you might want (a surprising number of physics teachers admitted to DD that they were also dyslexic so understood the challenges she faced) but they were able to convey their own enthusiasm for their subject to their pupils.

Needmoresleep You have a point, but I don't think it's the most significant element. Plenty of state school teachers don't consider the independent sector as a matter of principle.

Twins, money is not everything, but is part of it. I have seen plenty of teachers , state and private, leave London with their young families. Private schools respond offering higher salaries, additional responsibilities (eg science teacher responsible for medical school applications) or accomodation. And indeed on the job training for maths and science grads. State schools are stuck on national wage scales with a London weighting that does not cover additional accomodation and commuting costs. Guess who has a fighting chance of retaining.

I don't think money is the issue. I think workload is the issue. I worked in a school for 15 years where students might have 20+ maths teachers by the time they got through to Year 11. The issue wasn't money. I think the issues include:

• Student attitude to Maths - it must be disheartening teaching kids who go on about how boring your subject is, or how difficult, or how they can't do it (obvs as a drama teacher I don't get this

• Parent attitude - it's still totally fine to say "ooo, I could never do maths" in a flippant way, whereas very few parents say "oooo, I never bothered to learn to read".

• General cultural response to maths - see above.

• The assumption that half of what you teach will have no application in real life ("I'm never going to need algebra! Why can't you just teach me the stuff I need know..." "I have a calculator on my phone. I always have my phone with me. Why do I need to do this stuff?")

• New GCSEs (not just in Maths, of course, but they've made things harder)

• Progress 8

• Performance tables in general

• The emphasis on STEM - not the cry that it's more important than everything else, but the fact that so much press says that we, as a country, are failing our young people in these areas - can't do much for your self-esteem.

The answer to none of these things is to pay maths teachers more. It won't fix any of the above issues. Retention is a issue but I don't think it's because Maths teachers feel that they can't afford to live. Why do any of us leave mainstream teaching (like I did)? Workload. The pointless shit we have to do that has literally no impact on learning but takes time.

I am not getting this.

Teachers want wage parity, because they feel work loads are roughly equal. Fine. Except like many policy decisions, equality has a cost.

The maths teacher, like other teachers, is fed up with pay and conditions. They see a job offered at the local private school/sixth form college advertised on better terms, with plenty of high ability sets. Even if the idea was to always teach in state, the teacher feels the choice is to switch or leavin teaching altogether, or at least have a break for a few years.

As for the PE teacher. Unfotunately the private school asked the maths teacher if they had an interest in a sport. Ahh badminton. The school reached the Independent Schools badminton finals last year. Would they be willing to supervise the sixth form girls badminton team supported by a high level peripatetic coach? Sounds interesting says the maths teacher (or no as the case may be) but is that not the job of PE staff. No says the school, we take our sports seriously so only employ a Director of Sport. Lending our facilities to sports clubs after school means that high level sport is well intergrated, with us using their staff during the day and our pupils accessing competitive clubs at other times. We currently have five pupils in national teams.

So a state school with no maths teacher but school games run by a demotivated PE teacher who sees no way out, not least because they are aware that they are on far better terms including school hours and pension, than local high level sports coaches. A private school with maths teacher and high level sport. And parents asking grandparents to help them take up a bursary for their bright and sporty 10 year old, because the opportunities are so much better.

Its fine wanting one outcome, but only if the probable consequences are thought through.