New analysis - Grammar schools in England

cantkeep
You are so right
BUT
teachers have the resources available - DH (and I ) are on the forums / websites / facebook / linkedin groups

I guess the point is that teachers have to be given the confidence to look (bye bye Gove)

DH and my living is based around this formula - its tough , day in , day out

I suppose the question is, would that maths teacher know where to go? Lancashire is fairly un-academised, so maybe there would be LA networks, perhaps.

Or would they find, as Noble experienced there was no guidance anywhere about what to best do with them. We had to find our own way.

cantkeep
I'd have to ask DH (but he's a beer ahead of me)
but I know from work he's done
that old style LA clusters work a treat ... as in sharing best practice
and then following that up the lime till the HE centre is located
and they DINE OUT on those kids

Academies have destroyed such networks in many areas
but they are there
TBH my DH is in STEM networks - I'm always happy to share in a PM

I also don't think the comparison to your school class is relevant (wirth the possible exception of the scientist).

All the others almost certainly honed and developed their talent in extracurricular provision, not in school. We have already established that for e.g. Maths, the provision IN SCHOOL is expected to be what enables them to reach their potential.

So if you were a standard comprehensive school maths teacher in, let's say, Skelmersdale, where is the road map to follow if faced with an exceptional student?

It SHOULD be obvious but is it? If it wasn't obvious to Noble in a big, Southern city in a large comprehensive, how would it be obvious to another teacher in a deprived community elsewhere in the country, remote from HE?

I guess I'm odd
out of my class at school (30)
one became a world class ballerina
one became a world class scientist
one became a world class artist
one became a world class actor
one is a world level entrepeneur
we all bunked the same classes in lower 6th
this obsession with "specialist schools" is just bilge

properly resourced state schools have the time to track down support for exceptional kids
so the true issue is funding

Talkin, exactly. And it wastes SO MUCH potential.

Noble, yes of course. But there isn't the same '5 hours a day' muscle memory / fitness / technique need that there is for e.g. dance. Does that make sense?

So dancers at White Lodge (or even the level below) need to work for an inordinate number of hours to reach their potential.

An 11 year old mathematician does not NEED to work for many hours more than their contemporaries (and thus narrow their curriculum) in the same way.

cantkeep
DH goes to schools all over
hence I rather obsessively read the league tables
the correlation between racial mix and outcomes is rock solid (and inverse by the way)
For areas with no HE provision its nigh on impossible (see maps multiple)
AI should allow such provision should be location irrelevant
BUT
the heads are luddites
its so hard
he comes home from events in such towns on an utter downer

What annoyed me about when we had our exceptional student was that there was no guidance anywhere about what to best do with them. We had to find our own way.

Maths has the advantage that you DON'T need to practice it for hours to get better at it.

Um. If you practise maths for hours you’ll definitely get better at it!

Hence me wondering - and only wondering - whether identofying and collecting together those children who are in need of such provision in a small number of locations (Special Schools, if you like), co-located with decent comprehensives, would eliminate the 'luck' element which currently exists in the identification and nurture of such students,

Talkin, that is pretty much exactly what I would want for EVERY child of that level of ability.

However it should be as accessible whether you live in Cambridge or Cwmbran, Salisbury or Skelmersdale - and I don't think it is.

cantkeep
for the lad in DDs year
at primary he worked with the secondary - but stayed in cohort for all but maths
in secondary he worked with the college - but stayed in cohort
at 6th form he worked with Warwick, Imperial and Cambridge
but stayed in cohort

I'll not name him but he's visible on the publishing line already
but staying in mainstream school did him no harm and multiple benefit

staying in cohort is critical
or leave completely as dance and music students do
(not a good outcome for maths)

Maths has the advantage that you DON'T need to practice it for hours to get better at it - unlike music, dance, many other sports. Hence my very first point about co-location of 'High Ability Special schools ' in a subject of exceptional strength with good comprehensives, to allow teaching across the curriculum at the appropriate level in all other subjects.

No, I don't want that.

My comparison with dance schools, SEN Special Schools, music schools etc is only to do with 'provision of appropriate expertise effectively in 1 place' NOT to do with narrowing of the curriculum.

Oh but dance schools and the like do narrow down. Hours and hours spent on dance training. You’re saying you don’t want that?

In fact, i would be quite happy for them to spend less hours on Maths lessons than their age peers - because they may well need fewer hours to grasp each new concept AS LONG AS THOSE HOURS TEACH THEM SOMETHING.

Where have I suggested narrowing down?? You are completely misunderstanding my point.

An exceptionally able mathematician is not 'narrowing down' if they do all the other lessons with their peers BUT HAVE MATHS LESSONS THAT TEACH THEM SOMETHING.

So, in practical terms, I would expect an exceptionally able mathematician to have as many hours of other subjects as other pupils BUT their Maths lessons should be pitched at such a level that they make progress, rather than mark time to allow others to catch up.

Whether that is online streaming of lessons, attending lessons in other years, having a university tutor assigned to them, being taught in a Special School maths unit attached to the comprehensive school where they have most lessons - whatever.

cantkeep
is my job as a teacher to ensure that they achieve what they can in that area
not in isolation no
educate
from the latin "to lead out"

to allow a child to narrow down completely is a fail as an educator

That’s assuming that other areas have nothing to contribute to the person with an area of particular strength

No, that's not what I mean.

I am happy that a child with an area of exceptional strength should also be educated in other areas.

HOWEVER, I think this must be AS WELL AS not INSTEAD OF as fully as possible providing for their area of strength, and I would not be happy (as an educator) saying 'but they need a broad education, let's not worry about their area of strength' in the way that Talkin seems to suggest.

I don't think it's right to broaden into areas of weakness / moderate ability at the expense of provision in an area of strength.

That’s assuming that other areas have nothing to contribute to the person with an area of particular strength, which is obviously wrong. Yes they should do PE, because mens sana in corpore sano. They should do art, literature, music, science and so on for the same reason as other students - to produce well-rounded students, with a knowledge of the world and their place in it. Who knows what their source of inspiration may turn out to be, or what area they finally contribute most to?

cantkeep I think the argument for superselectives does have some logic behind it - I generally feel much more sympathetic to people arguing that case than those who want a return to 20% grammars. I simply can't see any logic behind that system. I admit I've never engaged with a poster who wanted 20% grammars who didn't give me the impression that they thought, fundamentally, that those who pass the 11+ are somehow "different" from those who don't.

I guess the difference between those with a natural gift for Maths and those for English is Maths doesn't really need maturity? You can't really imagine an eight year old understanding Jane Austen or Middlemarch (obviously there'd be many who could read the actual words) because you just wouldn't get some of the underlying meanings.

I think it is OK to make every child do 'the basics of everything else' - my mooted 'Special schools for those whose SEN is to be exceptionally able' would be attached to a comprehensive for exactly this reason AS LONG AS you also provide for progress in their area of strength.

I don't think it's right to broaden into areas of weakness / moderate ability at the expense of provision in an area of strength.