Zero Tolerance, No Excuses...what should happen to pupils who can’t behave?

Oh floot that's so sad.
My DS probably has ADHD and does sometimes need to take a break for his own good, sometimes wants to (but could get his act together) but sometimes would benefit much more from learning in a full class setting. So his education would suffer massively in a zero tolerance school. The really interesting science visitor isn't going to deliver their session again for a small group. Yet that's just the kind of situation where he'd shout out /jump up and down.

That story made me went to cry floot

How tragic.

Alexander, fortunately, the girl went to live with her father (divorced from mother) and moved school. Sadly, her mother went on to kill herself a year after the initial attempt.

Floot - that is truly terrible.

I thought it was bad when Dd was told off in junior school for not doing her homework when the same school had sent her brother Home I’ll & he turned out to be very poorly with cellulitis & we spent half the night up the hospital with him (grandparents cane & collected Dd & put her to bed for us).

But yiur poor dd’s Friend. I hope she & her mum are ok now.

Ds was forced out of a selective school. He has autism. We were told they can’t be seen to be treating him differently. They refused to put in place adjustments recommended by the Ed psych. We were advised to withdraw him 2 weeks before autism outreach were due to go into school. Maths was a particular issue. The teacher confiscated his fidget cube (the silent one bit the flashy light noisy spinner). He was refused a time out card etc etc.

He’s now in a school whose behaviour policy specifically says that whilst certain standards are expected any SEN are taken into account. He is cut some slack. He has somewhere to go if he feels overwhelmed. He’s now predicted a Grade 8 in maths.

Isn't it, Noble? This is the same school that refused to acknowledge my daughter's diagnosis of ADHD, despite letters from her consultant, and passed off as "banter" a teacher giving her a behaviour mark and telling her she was stupid and didn't even know what day of the week it was, when she took in the wrong day's books after a bank holiday.

Ds1's school is pretty zero tolerance for bad behaviour. It works well for children with certain special needs (very popular with children with autism fi) as it is a very rigid and calm environment with predictable rules. SENCO is very on the ball with applications for statements (I know they are not called that now but can't think of the correct acronym) when children require more support. Children whose special needs mean they can't manage to work quietly and constructively in a class of 30 spend more time taught in smaller groups in the unit. I don't know whether they/their parents would think that was a good thing or not.

I can't think of one adult that doesn't ever (a) get things wrong (b) forget things (c) occasionally kick off/become rude. Expecting children to hold it together all day long, especially those with SEN, is clearly discriminatory. (I teach in a secondary school).

It is a handy indicator of a school to avoid at all costs. Indicates massive ignorance on the part of the senior management. That is our experience anyway.

*want...

Nobel, my husband and I had to take in a friend of DD's overnight when her mother tried to kill herself. We took her into school the next day and delivered her to the wellbeing team and head of key stage. She had a home ec. lesson that day, but obviously didn't have her own ingredients - we simply gave DD enough quantities for 2. The teacher refused to listen to her explanation and punished her by making her sweep the floor after the rest of the class, saying that it wasn't the first time the girl had not brought her ingredients (true - her mum was in crisis and wasn't together enough to buy them).

(not talking about SN, I don't know about that)
Some kids respond very badly to pressure. Nothing to be gained by punishment regime except making them terrified to walk thru the door. They'll ant to bunk off instead, if they have forgotten a pen & know they will get punished for it.

I’ve worked in a school with zero tolerance, however it was backed up with a unit where support could be given to those struggling in class so not isolation as such and we involved parents very quickly. Some pupils had individualised timetables, they had support to be integrated if removed, LSA support, ELSA support, pastoral support was there if needed and zero tolerance worked because the support was there for those who needed it. Behaviour was exemplary and this was in a school in a tough area. If done properly, it can and does work.

I think it is something that's best judged on a case by case basis, and also looking at how the education of other kids in the classroom is being impacted.
Zero tolerance as a blanket rule isn't good, but neither is inclusion at all costs.

Tiggy, the two children you describe would often be the same child. Many children with asd can’t base loud noise and sudden breaks in routines but yet can panic. Special schools manage that.

Children with hfa often don’t need ss and wouldn’t be catered for there

I agree with you op. I upset someone who was saying how wonderful her school like this was by pointing out my sn child wouldn’t last 5 minutes.

Like many dc with sn no dx but clear issues with impulse control and anxiety among other things.

Aside from these concerns more generally I also feel the approach taken would be one no adult would put up with in the workplace and rightly so. School is not prison.

Do you think that schools should be allowed to have zero tolerance?

No, I can't agree with something that unforgiving. Not same as saying tolerant of everything either. They can't be expected to keep kids who are threats to selves or others in the ordinary school environment, for instance.

Surely punishing a SEN child for SEN behaviours would break the Equlity law?

There is a school round here that has zero tolerance. Kids are excluded from class and taught separately if they disrupt normal classes. So they don't lose out educationally, and the other kids don't have their education disrupted. Very effective. School gets great results.

The problem with 'cutting them some slack' is how much and to what detriment of other students. My DD is dylextic and what really, really affects her ability to concentrate is talking/noise/disruption. So giving ADHD kids slack could really affect another SEN student, not to mention the other 28 kids in the room.