Zero Tolerance, No Excuses...what should happen to pupils who can’t behave?

My DD has ADHD & ODD and our school are zero tolerance. Thankfully for us, the deputy head teacher is on our side and we talk daily. DD is excluded from lessons when she can’t cope, she has somewhere to go so she doesn’t disrupt others and has her space.

She is medicated but it doesn’t cover the whole day and of course, if she is holding a lid on it during the day we get the repercussion after school but that’s ok because I can manage her, I love her and I know her triggers.

She has issues with materials, struggles with the school uniform and likes the comfort of her coat but, coats aren’t allowed... this would be ok to be challenged if 5 other students weren’t wearing their coat when the zero tolerance is applied to DD. She can’t get her head around why she is being “picked on” and her defiance kicks in.

She is on behaviour watch which is fine and I support that (I hope that’s the right thing to do for DD?) frustrates the hell out of me when she gets a 3 for fidgeting or forgetting a pen. I feel an achievment because she turned up and managed to stay there.

Purple in that situation that's where zero tolerance fails and pastoral care is required. It needs a whole school ethos of recognition that behaviour is communication.
So when the student comes in defensive because their anxious you should employ the tactics of "you talk and I'll listen" of giving choice and a get out. Of recognising the behaviour is part of a bigger picture.

That's not to say in certain situations you need to act first to keep others safe. Or that you remove the child from the classroom etc. But that as part of that you work to address the driver of the behaviour. Work to derive the experience that's driven the behaviour and the feelings surrounding that experience. That you work with the pupil to teach them a better way.

Punishment for having feelings you can't manage does not succeed in many cases to a resolution or a solution. It only succeeds in giving the child another negative experience and driving more negative feeling which drives more negative behaviour.

I don't for one moment think when you have a class of 30-35 students to teach teachers have the time to address this with the child there and then. Or it's productive to the learning of everyone for them to devote that time.

But.... "X, I can see you are angry/cross/ not ready to learn. We can talk after lesson. Right now I need you to decide if you are ready to learn and can remain in the lesson or you need to work outside/go to pastoral/ have 5 minutes outside and return".

It's about building up that respect. Building that that they have a voice that will be heard.

There is nothing wrong with a discussion about "I understand you were anxious about X so reacted this way. Let's work together to find a solution to the problem (Eg hand homework in following day by 9am.). Let's work together to find a way to support your organisation so it doesn't happen again. As you know school rules are X. Therefore you need to sit a 30 minute detention for .....".

It's not about not giving consequence, it's about a holistic approach the the child and their needs.

Recently a conversation like this led to a serious safeguarding concern when a disclosure was made.
Had the teacher just punished continuously for the lack of homework the child was likely to have continuously clam up and behaviour may have escalated - and no one would have known what went on behind the closed doors of their home.

No I agree in some spheres it isnt swearing in the sense of being particularly offensive language

What people aren't considering is how and why the parent or pupil results in using swearing.

I'm not advocating swearing but I'm empathetic to how situations arise.

You are a pupil. It's zero tolerance. You realise before you attend lesson A you've not got your homework. Your anxiety increases because you know it's zero tolerance.

The zero tolerance leaves you feeling powerless. The whole ethos of zero tolerance is that teacher is all powerful and student loses their voice - and realistically their humanity. Humans make mistakes and have outside influences in their lives.

You attend lesson and are instantly put in detention for not having the homework. No questions asked. Therefore no empathy to your situation. At some point all that power from above stripping you of a voice will cause you to explode. Rightly or wrongly you may swear.

But stripping students of a voice is treating them with a lack of respect. Respect should be one of the biggest values in a school and should work both ways.

I think people are reducing this down to a very rose-tinted image of a student coming in and sitting silently at the back of the room and being punished.

My experience is totally different from that. IME, that student will usually come in and mask the anxiety about homework with disruptive behaviour. So how are you supposed to proceed?!

But then I work in a hairy arsed industry where I cant afford to have an attack of the vapours because somebody has used naughty words

That's not gendered at all

noblegiraffe I wouldnt think the less of you if you did, I would recognise that I was being obstructive, patronising and dismissive (quite possibly wilfully).

But then I work in a hairy arsed industry where I cant afford to have an attack of the vapours because somebody has used naughty words.

Like I said above I didn't swear - and wouldn't.

And I don't condone it.

But then I'm also the parent who wouldn't judge a school teacher for using a swear word where contextually it was an understandable slip.

I remember sitting in my go surgery. Amazing Gp who employs common sense and does so much for my ds. We hit one of those snags that comes from the system.
I sighed "FFS, why does it always have to be so difficult and so many hurdles to jump".

Then apologised profusely and made clear I was exasperated at system and NOT GP. She just laughed and said she agreed with me!

Yes, my language wasn't acceptable. Yes, I could reasonably have been accused at swearing at her. But in context it was taken as designed. An emotional response.

GnomeDePlume

so what is a parent supposed to do if they feel that the person they are talking to is being patronising, obstructive and dismissive?

You take it to the next person in the complaints chain.

Or slam the phone down.

I don't treat parents that way, I expect them to return the courtesy.

GnomeDePlume

I've no idea - not swear at me, though.

Pengggwn so what is a parent supposed to do if they feel that the person they are talking to is being patronising, obstructive and dismissive? It doesnt mean that the person they are talking to is being those things but the parent feels it?

Many building site workers won’t care though! It’s the norm there! The Irish seem to use swear words as every other word in some quarters. Having listened to the Irish at Cheltenham last week, there is clearly a language of swearing within a language. It seems embedded!

Yep, we do. Still wouldn't accept a parent swearing at me. The Irish know well that there is a time and place for swearing, and a teacher/parent conversation isn't it.

GnomeDePlume

No, it is rude.

So in my example if the parent had cried 'oh for crying out loud' then banged down the phone is that now okay?

No. Teachers have the right not to be sworn at and treated abusively. Other people's right to vent their feelings does not trump the right of school employees to feel safe and unthreatened.

youarenotkiddingme

I understand the urge to swear sometimes. But I'm not allowed to do so whenever I feel like it. That doesn't remove my humanity, it just means I'm required to behave with civility if I want people to be prepared to speak to me. I don't take calls from abusive parents.

What people aren't considering is how and why the parent or pupil results in using swearing.

I'm not advocating swearing but I'm empathetic to how situations arise.

You are a pupil. It's zero tolerance. You realise before you attend lesson A you've not got your homework. Your anxiety increases because you know it's zero tolerance.
The zero tolerance leaves you feeling powerless. The whole ethos of zero tolerance is that teacher is all powerful and student loses their voice - and realistically their humanity. Humans make mistakes and have outside influences in their lives.

You attend lesson and are instantly put in detention for not having the homework. No questions asked. Therefore no empathy to your situation. At some point all that power from above stripping you of a voice will cause you to explode. Rightly or wrongly you may swear.

But stripping students of a voice is treating them with a lack of respect. Respect should be one of the biggest values in a school and should work both ways.

I remember the closest I became to swearing on a phone to a teacher. She actually told me my ds was 50% responsible for all disruption in class - yet could give me no concrete examples of his behaviour. Her reasons for this were - his writing is illegible, he is socially immature, he cannot work in groups effectively and he is easily distracted.
I did not and do not disagree that these behaviours are evident in ds. In fact all are recorded on his EHCP with support to meet outcomes related to them.

The teacher also couldn't explain to me why my ds writing being illegible made him 50% responsible for the pupils who decided to talk over her, not having the right equipment and searching for it when she wants them to settle down to work etc.

I'm a great believer at looking at the whole picture of how the confrontation occurred - rather than the result.

It's not necessarily 'swearing in the presence of' though, is it? I know a number of teachers who have been sworn at by parents. Saying in tears to a teacher "It's a nightmare, I just can't fucking get him to do his homework - oh sorry for swearing!" is also very different from "Oh for fuck's sake" and hanging up. Having a slip of the tongue when upset, and knowing you shouldn't have said it - kind of understandable. Swearing at the teacher in annoyance- unacceptable under any circumstances.

Many building site workers won’t care though! It’s the norm there! The Irish seem to use swear words as every other word in some quarters. Having listened to the Irish at Cheltenham last week, there is clearly a language of swearing within a language. It seems embedded!

Hopefully you've explained to your colleague that it won't be well received by teachers, medical professionals, the bank, customers etc if he peppers his speech with the word fuck Gnome

Swearing at staff and your child not doing his homework are two separate issues, in my view. And the example of swearing you gave isn't acceptable in my eyes at all.

I am not conflating, the two things are part of the same issue (forgotten homework and the impact of consequence on student and family).

One person interprets the swearing as being at and the consequence is that parent is labelled as being rude and abusive and is not engaged with. The other person interprets the swearing as being in the presence of and engagement continues albeit possibly with a more senior manager.

And just to add another twist to this, I have a colleague for whom English isnt his first language. Every other word is f---- (learnt his English from truckers!). Yet he apologises if he accidentally says 'bloody'. Not all swearing is the same.

GnomeDePlume

You're conflating the swearing with the homework issue. I'm not defending zero tolerance policies on homework, but on swearing at staff. And 'For fuck's sake' and putting the phone down is totally unacceptable, and yes, I would count it as swearing at me, not just in my hearing.