Zero Tolerance, No Excuses...what should happen to pupils who can’t behave?

Peng the problem with zero tolerance in some schools though is it is just that - zero. Forgot a pen? Instant 30 min detention that evening after school. There is no wiggle room. And it is a very negative and demoralising strategy.

That isn't the problem with zero tolerance. It is the problem with the things they have decided to show zero tolerance of.

I am all for chances. However, that requires giving staff the discretion to give students chances in line with what they believe is fair. And telling parents, 'No, Mr. X is a professional - we trust his judgement and are upholding the detention for the third occasion on which little Bobby forgot his pen.'

Schools are increasingly expected to be able to justify every decision in objective, documented terms, which is burdensome and silly, and leads to the adoption of silly policies.

5plus luckily for send pupils you are not responsible for them. The equality act calls for reasonable adjustments.

Peng the problem with zero tolerance in some schools though is it is just that - zero. Forgot a pen? Instant 30 min detention that evening after school. There is no wiggle room. And it is a very negative and demoralising strategy.

And something people may need to consider is that parents are often fighting for an EHCP for their child and the right placement. The system is horrendous. But as they can't get their legal entitlement then they must attend MS (we are often advised of our legal responsibility to get it child to school even if they are self harming or harming us as a result of anxiety). Then they get to the school and often get punished (where there is zero tolerance) because they can't manage the environment.

Camhs were extremely helpful with my ds by explaining that people expected his communication to reflect his cognitive ability and language ability (advanced). His emotional ability is pre school level. Therefore you have to consider you wouldn't exclude a 3yo from nursery for having a tantrum. You have to apply that same level of expectation to the 12yo who emotionally is 3.

Schools cannot have a two-tier behaviour policy where some kids get away with rule breaking and others don't!

In general I agree with this. I am happy to differentiate based on need in terms of, for example, number of warnings given, tone, strategies to de-escalate and prevent certain behaviours, but I am never going to permit certain students to swear in my classroom, to not wear the uniform (unless for medical reasons), to not attempt the work (except when they need urgent help).

You have to balance policy, fairness to all students and individual needs.

I am, unfortunately, asked quite regularly to make completely unreasonable exceptions. Not even by parents. By SLT.

Er you do realise there are hardly any ss places?

He shouldn't be in a mainstream school if he cannot cope with normal and reasonable behaviour expectations.Schools cannot have a two-tier behaviour policy where some kids get away with rule breaking and others don't!i
I do not believe this is all the schools fault, he got sacked from his work experience placement!

youarenotkiddingme

But surely you can have zero tolerance of some things and not others? So, you can punish disrespectful behaviour right away, but give discretionary warnings for other things? That's what I would do anyway.

It's also pertinent to remember it's not just kids with send who will find zero tolerance difficult.

I was an extremely well behaved and compliant child. But I naturally had low self esteem (due to dynamics at home) and naturally was passive and eager to please.

I struggled through secondary enough because I didn't want to get into trouble, couldn't speak up when others being disruptive was affecting me etc.
If I'd have had to spend my whole 5 years worried about instant punishment for mistakes (forgotten pen or homework) with no support or understanding or chance to rectify it - I'd have drowned.

Much as I am loathe to engage 5plus , it is totally inappropriate to describe a young person with ADHD not coping in a school with a zero tolerance policy, as a little shit.

The school had to apologise to him for not making reasonable adjustments. The majority of children with ADHD will not, due to their SEND (which includes poor/delayed executive functioning), be able to comply with zero tolerance regimes. ADHD involves impulsivity, inattentiveness and hyperactivity. It does not mean that children are deciding to be little shits.

@mumsnet - please remove the offensive post. What was that campaign again? This is my child?

GnomeDePlume

That's you, personally. You don't mind it. The general view on swearing at people you don't know well is that it is abusive language. I'm not tolerant of that like you are.

swearing at a person is NEVER acceptable. Swearing at a situation is sometimes ok so long as you are mindful that some people really do not like to hear swearing at all .
I think people ned to be aware that sometimes wellbehaved children find it distressing and/or frightening to witness extreme misbehaviour/defiance and contretemps occurring in the classrooms. Parents of SN kids talk about ow scared and overwhelmed their children feel when they have a meltdown or outburst at school, but are not interested that the quiet well-behaved children can find this sort of carry on in the classroom very scary/distressing

Pengggwn I have worked in offices where swearing was not normal but in those offices I found the levels of passive aggression to be toxic.

On the whole I only swear at my laptop (it hasnt taken offence yet) apparently when I swear I sound like Joyce Grenfell losing the plot so try not to as it only causes people to laugh at me.

No. Because the young person being discussed has SEND and you are being offensive by describing him as a little shit.

But he IS being a shit, and it's not just the school who think so if his work placement sacked him from an unpaid position!!
Having ADHD does not give you the right to jeopardise 29 orher kids life chances. He needs to learn self-control and he learns that by having consequences.He WILL end up in jail if his parents don't start holding him accountable fir his own actions.They are doing him no favours by babying him

Schools do try to find ways. They spend a lot of time and energy trying to do so. Sometimes they lack the resources. But when, for example, you have a class of 30 kids, ten of whom are simply not engaged and are prone to mildly poor behaviour, and another 5 who have significant SEN but not enough to require 1to1 support, it's pretty tricky to implement anything effectively.

GnomeDePlume

Then your workplace is weird. I wouldn't tolerate that from a colleague, a client, a manager - anyone.

Funny really
I used to work in THE hairy arsed industry
and random swearing at the world was ignored
but swearing at anybody in authority was NOT tolerated

many of our staff had learning difficulties / behaviour problems / SEN / ADHD
the probation officer used to come to site to do the weekly checks on some of them as she at least knew where they would be
BUT
with proper management most of them held down a job and earned a wage

some were too out of control but the vast majority could be slotted in somewhere

we were not trained to handle SEN in any way (this was well over 20 years ago in the building trade) but we coped

schools really should find ways to handle pupils
and be given the resources to do so as prison is significantly more expensive in the long run.

No. Because the young person being discussed has SEND and you are being offensive by describing him as a little shit.

Your post won't be up for long so your ignorance and unkindness will thankfully not have much impact.

why? because you can't accept other people having a different pov to you?
Grow up will you

Reported 5plsMeAndHim

Of course people aren't allowed to be abusive but there is a differentiation between swearing and abusive. If I was being obstructive, dismissive or patronising then I would probably be told to f-off and in my work place that would not be seen as abusive.

In my work world sometimes long term customers shout and not uncommon for them to get irate. We are tasked with staying calm and getting on with it.

I’m sure the same is true of eg PAs to the stars, staff in mental health settings and staff in many hotels.

GnomeDePlume

Is that what happens in your 'hairy arsed industry'? Everyone gets a chance to speak, emotional outbursts are a sign of a need to communicate etc? Do you have a conch? Or is it only teachers who need to demonstrate empathy even when people are being incredibly rude to them, to the point of abusiveness?

I don’t expect teachers to understand but DD does. She thrives of consistency. Lack of equals a melt down...

Perhaps there's a need sometimes to recognise that the parent or student feels they are being patronised, obstructed and dismissed and that is what is provoking an emotional outburst.

On the occasions when I have felt I had to raise a concern the most constructive conversations have been when my point of view has been properly acknowledged even if in the end the result hasn't gone my way.

But then I work in a hairy arsed industry where I cant afford to have an attack of the vapours because somebody has used naughty words.

I have never had an 'attack of the vapours'. You seem to be saying that parents and students should be allowed to give free rein to their emotional outbursts, because life is difficult for them, but teachers (who have a stressful job and are human beings with problems like anyone else) should just man up and put up with offensive behaviour. Why the hell should they?