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Original poster

Oversubscription Secondary Appeals - admitting over PAN

30 replies

Shattered04 · 07/03/2018 10:07

As mentioned elsewhere, DD missed out by 64m (on a nearly six mile distance) to get into her chosen school. We are going to appeal*

We have solid reasons for wanting her there rather than our local comprehensive. She has ASD, and her best friend got in and she didn't, and she has social difficulties, plus the SEN provision is far better. We also have some sound, convincing academic reasons for things this school offers that our local doesn't that DD is talented in, so I'm hoping we have a decent case based on that.

However, from looking through the history back until 2015, the school has never admitted over PAN. And for appeals in our situation in that county, only 13% were successful last year.

What kind of counters can I use if the PAN has not been exceeded historically? Do we even have a chance?

Thank you!!

*whilst hoping against hope we get a waiting list place, but there was no change in the distance last year

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Original poster
Shattered04 · 09/03/2018 23:00

Thank you! I will contact the SENCo there I think, and find out what they can offer DD based on her report. That'll be useful for appeal as well.

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prh47bridge · 09/03/2018 16:43

Yes, for getting in under medical/social it is all about SEN.

Original poster
Shattered04 · 09/03/2018 14:18

The council has replied very quickly (I guess as my query is time-sensitive compared to most) saying that it's fine to apply under that rule and the diagnosis counts as a change of circumstance as I assumed, but I'll need to get everything in by Thursday.

No pressure.. Shock

I'm assuming the focus for this application will have to be more on the SEN aspects than other factors such as extra-curricular or academic. And no comparisons with the allocated school either I presume. I can still put some of that in my official appeal though.

Genuinely frustrated it's rule 5 rather than rule 2 like it is in so many other places, including all the other schools we applied to and many of the others in that county too! Then again maybe they'll be a bit less strict if it's rule 5 as the gains are not as high?

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Original poster
Shattered04 · 09/03/2018 08:43

MumofTwo - sadly not, as that would have made life much easier! She was literally diagnosed a few weeks ago, although I was sure she had it for many years now. It took two years from referral to diagnosis.

I'm not even sure she could get a statement, as she is doing very well academically (and currently even reasonably socially at her primary because a) lovely children and b) very nurturing school) so I'm not sure what the grounds would be.

I think I will email them anyway for advice, thank you!

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prh47bridge · 09/03/2018 07:30

the county where I live admit all qualifiers with a statement

That happens everywhere. It is the law. If a child has an EHCP or a statement naming a school they must be admitted even if the school is full.

MumofTwoandaDog · 09/03/2018 07:23

Does she have a statement? I know the county where I live admit all qualifiers with a statement regardless of rank (we do rank not distance) - it’s in their admission policy. If she recently had one since you applied then ask the admissions team what you should do. We have reconsideration in our county till end of March and I know a child with a sen statement got a place then.

prh47bridge · 08/03/2018 23:43

As it is stated by the doctor and is not simply repeating your opinion it is definitely worth bringing up in the appeal. It could indeed help to sway the panel.

Original poster
Shattered04 · 08/03/2018 22:51

Just got our ASD report today. It's brief (well, it's NHS) and there's not much that is useful in the appeals sense besides the usual talk of social issues. However, one of the things it does mention is that it is important she goes to a secondary school with her best friend. Now, that is coming from the doctor, not us. It wasn't something I was going to use, or at least not in any significant way, but given it is stated by a professional.. thoughts about this? Could it actually make the difference?

I'm also wondering whether it is worth going for the social and medical rule just anyway, because of what was mentioned above about people out of catchment but closer to us. We have a week to get evidence for that in.

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Original poster
Shattered04 · 08/03/2018 13:46

Great, thank you!!

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prh47bridge · 08/03/2018 13:13

Absolutely. I would definitely use that as evidence that the preferred school takes bullying more seriously than the allocated one.

Original poster
Shattered04 · 08/03/2018 11:18

Just had a look - our preferred school has a very detailed anti-bullying policy that goes over several pages. Whereas our allocated school only has this line "The school has an Anti-Bullying culture which reinforces that bullying is wrong and that such incidents must be reported." under a SEN section. Is this worth using?

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Original poster
Shattered04 · 08/03/2018 11:09

Thank you! I could probably ask a few other parents as well if needs be. I'm going to look deeper into the anti-bullying policies of both now.

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prh47bridge · 08/03/2018 10:57

Anything you have on bullying is admissible, it is just a question of how much weight the panel will give it. This is an area where you could, potentially, use information in the Ofsted report if there is anything relevant. It is also worth checking to see if either school has published policies on bullying. If your preferred school has an anti-bullying policy and the allocated school doesn't that is clear evidence that your preferred school takes it more seriously. If the allocated school claims that it doesn't have a bullying problem you can use that and argue that all schools have a bullying problem but some are in denial about it.

Original poster
Shattered04 · 08/03/2018 10:52

Thanks ph47bridge - I'll do that then.

I did actually speak to a parent today who has a son at the school in Y7. He was bullied in his first term, but she told me that they reacted very quickly and it was sorted very well. Is that more admissible, do you think? She's a good friend (DD2 is in the same class as her DD) so I think she would be willing to help.

How else could I get evidence? There's plenty in the Ofsted, and I could ask the SENCo, but is there anything else?

Thank you!!

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Witchend · 08/03/2018 08:20

Rewn7 the reason actually is very obvious, which I won't go into on here. It was good in that some of my friends got places which they wouldn't otherwise have got, so I was pleased for them. But the actual reason is so obvious I'm astounded he got away with it.

prh47bridge · 08/03/2018 00:10

My view is that getting in touch with the Senco at the preferred school is fine.

If the information you've got about bullying is third hand it won't carry very much weight. You shouldn't name the source if you use it - the name won't mean anything to the panel anyway. But it would be better if you could come up with other evidence that the preferred school takes a more proactive approach to dealing with bullying.

Yes, you can ask the council for a map.

Rewn7 · 07/03/2018 22:44

That’s really interesting Witchend. After reading your post I checked and indeed they haven’t raised the PAN for 2018 so DD’s year will (apart from any successful appeals) have 20 more children than the year below. The year above only allowed 4 appeals only so quite a difference.

I’ll keep an ear out for how appeals go this year (purely for my own curiosity). I wonder if like yours, they admitted all the appeals as a one off for reasons unknown and will go back to fighting them again for 2018?

Witchend · 07/03/2018 22:35

DD’s school took 20 over PAN at appeal this year. Obviously they’ve set a precedent there but going forward they must be sure they can accommodate those levels.
Don't assume that a precedent has been set.
Ds' school the head appeared at the appeals for his year and said the school could accommodate all children at the appeal (3 per class) for that year so all appeals were upheld, and they have large classes in his year.
They've fought every other year before and after and very few appeals get through, even now in his year most subsequent appeals have been fought and lost despite they are down a fair number from where they started.

Original poster
Shattered04 · 07/03/2018 22:22

Thank you very much - that is really good advice and much appreciated.

It has been suggested that I get in touch with the SENCo at the preferred school and ask what provisions they could make for her, given we'd hopefully be near the top of the waiting list. Do you think this is a sensible thing to do, or inappropriate?

Unfortunately the stuff I have about bullying is effectively third hand - the best example is from a student there who heard about it, who told my daughter, who told me. I don't even know the student's full name as I have only seen her at passing at the club pickup they both attend. Does that make it inadmissible? But then I'd also feel kind of bad naming a student who probably had no idea her quote could be used in this way.

That's a few experienced people now who have warned me off the Progress 8 stuff - it seems paradoxical on the surface but once explained, it does make sense why I should just leave it.

I assume I would ask the council for the map, is this correct?

Hmm, that's a very good point about people out of catchment moving to the area. I had only considered people closer in than our tiny distance but of course that only applies in the first round - now it is everybody between us and the catchment area too. However, I don't fancy our chances of getting in on social and medical criteria, as I have heard they are very strict. And the deadline is 15th March, and we won't have our ASD report by then probably. That said, nothing ventured - and if the report does show up on time (I have already rung them to explain our situation) then it might be worth a shot.

Thank you again!

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prh47bridge · 07/03/2018 18:14

I wouldn't say too much about the Ofsted report but you can bring up the superior SEN provision. Ideally you should explain how the SEN provision at this school is better than the allocated school without referring to the Ofsted report. Similarly the stuff about bullying - specific examples are better than pointing to Ofsted.

I would keep away from Progress 8 scores. That sounds too much like saying "my daughter needs a good school". Everyone knows that's what you want but it isn't a reason for the panel to award a place and it can make them less likely to give you the benefit of any doubt.

The subjects on offer is definitely something you can use, as is the extra curricular clubs.

It is very difficult to check the distance. That should have been measured using a system that is very accurate. However, you could ask for a map showing where the address was measured from and to.

I would make sure the school and local authority are aware of your daughter's ASD diagnosis. As things stand, people who live out of catchment but closer to the school than you and applied late will be ahead of you on the waiting list. New applicants living nearer than you will also go ahead of you on the waiting list. If you can get her accepted under the social and medical criteria it is likely that she would be ahead of anyone else out of catchment.

Oh and no, academies are not all grammar schools. Most of them aren't.

Original poster
Shattered04 · 07/03/2018 14:23

Thanks all!

We haven't been told where we are on the waiting list - it's not their policy to until after the second round of allocations (which will also include late applications and those who have moved into the area after the cut off)

She did qualify, yep - with a very decent non-tutored score as well. Grammar schools aren't for everybody, especially if you live in a non-Grammar county like we do, but she is so academic and it is just a short, direct bus ride away (no others are in easy reach). The maximum distance has shrunk very drastically in recent years - until this year, several children each year from her school would get in. So when we moved to the area some years before that, we had always planned on sending her there, and she was desperate to go, as the school suited her perfectly.

In catchment children come first (past the usual higher ruled children) followed by social and medical, then it's just plain distance. As social and medical is the rule above us, there's no advantage to using her recent ASD diagnosis for that as it's unlikely to make any difference to our waiting list position.

Tinseltower - good point about the corridors, lighting etc. I'll look into that.

Buxbaum - I think the last possibly undersubscribed year (not by much) would be this year's Y11, so they're probably at their published capacity now.

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Buxbaum · 07/03/2018 13:28

If they've been undersubscribed in recent years then they might be willing to take her to secure the additional funding.

I assume she passed the entrance test? Do you know her mark?

Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar · 07/03/2018 13:14

Grammar schools don't usually have distance as their first criteria, do they? Did she pass the test?

Rewn7 · 07/03/2018 13:13

Good point PatriciaHolm. As far as I know (from a parent who successfully appealed) the school put up no defence and she said the headmaster advised the appeal panel to approve/admit them.

This could of course be a twist to the truth but I also think that perhaps, since the school has revised their admission policy now for 2018 to include feeder schools, it was a way to allow a future higher PAN a year early and to fill in the gaps between the old and new admission policy. I could be wrong of course but it is an academy and they have seemed keen to promote (almost brag about) the higher intake at parent events.

Tinseltower · 07/03/2018 13:11

Where are you on the waiting list? I imagine very close to the top with that distance. There will be movement between now and September so hopefully she’ll get a place from the waiting list.

Have a think about the environment of the two schools eg natural light, narrow or wider corridors that could affect her too.