City of London Girls withdrawing offers

soyalatte, you have indeed presented facts but facts which could also be fairly described as anecdotes. I too know of families who have already declined other places in favor of CLSG. But I also know of three families this year who have paid the deposit but for whom CLSG is not the first choice. All three would be happy to send their daughters to the school, but two would be happier to send them to HBS and one to SPGS if a waiting list place comes up.

If you wish to condescend, at least back it up with something solid.

expat96 exactly! Why not issue the offers on the same day and hold exams later?

I know that they are independent, but the above would help the schools themselves as they wouldn't have movement after state school offers.

That's why I asked if there is a historical reason of some kind as I can't see a logical or logistical one.

3) Hold exams early to mid-Feb and issue offers close to state school offers so that there is a very short period of uncertainty for schools and parents.

The presently insurmountable problem is, of course, that the schools in question are independent and can do whatever they like. However, if we're envisioning a world where we can play God, why not issue offers on the state school allocations day?

expat you could be right, you could be wrong.

I could like you conjecture, but the opposite - a small number of places are being held by parents who would prefer another school.

Or I could base opinion on facts.

Speaking with other parents who went through the process but daughters didn't make the grade, super keen families prepared and organised themselves accordingly. Not so fussed families understandably choose not to.

Speaking with other parents who have accepted, CLGS is clearly first choice and other offers are back ups that thankfully can now be rejected.

4. Only start taking acceptances from the date of state school allocation so no stampede, fist fights, etc. In conjunction with 3) - this should be doable.

5. Oh, and don't let people accept more than one school - easy to enforce with 2)

On a different note, is there some historical reason why exams happen so far in advance of the state allocation deadline? Wouldn't it be more logical to have these closer to the state allocation deadline? So the system could go something like that:

1. Have an ISEB/CEM style computer pre-test that you sit once and the results are available to all schools (i.e. current CE system for boys). Each secondary sets a minimum and a guidance target. Separate test for children with SpLD (i.e. either papers based with extra time or EdPsych report with cognitive scores as a substitute). This whittles down the number of sitting completely unrealistic schools. Probably won't help much, but will help a bit and given lots of selective schools are moving to having a pre-test anyway, might as well make it universal and sit it once for all schools. I believe that's how it also works in NYC with private schools, at least at kindergarten level.

2. Head writes maximum of 4 references (with a carve out for special circumstances, e.g. family might be moving due to jobs, but not sure on timing etc). Prep discloses to all secondaries the list of these 4.

3. Hold exams early to mid-Feb and issue offers close to state school offers so that there is a very short period of uncertainty for schools and parents.

This process definitely works for the majority of families given offers and helps the school take more girls who are super keen to join rather than are still deciding CLSG against other great schools and options.

I'd wait until 18 April before I drew this conclusion. What if it turns out that, this year, a large number of places are being held by parents who would prefer a grammar or another independent? And that a large number of girls, local or otherwise, for whom CLSG was the first choice (but whose parents aren't so familiar with game theory or aren't so able to part with £1500 quickly) are being forced to accept other options in the meantime?

Soya, all Dancer was asking was for your to explain:

"because they are not just like any other school"

A not unreasonable question. There is potentially all sorts of information on the internet. Since you insist the truth is out there, I will throw in one, rather naughty, anecdote. Westminster boys were regularly banned from supporting Westminster girls when they played home matches against City, for fear they would start chanting "Westminster rejects". This did not happen with any other school, and seemed based on a belief that a large number of City girls apply for other sixth forms, though only a minority are successful.

My assumption was that this is because it is quite a small school and might become a bit claustrophobic, especially for those who started at 8. It is a good school, but nothing we heard suggests that it is in some way "not just like any other school". A lot is about fit. Some girls seem to love it, others were more lukewarm.

Some very good points and ideas nvcontrolfreak.

Personally speaking my children are worth my (literally 10 mins) time on google to become aware and have a heads up.

Better that, than have to deal with anger, disappointment, failure, devastation and other emotions I have read and I fully sympathise with.

Also, this heads-up doesn't help the parents that as others have posted were playing the system and gambling on waiting for other offers whilst this clearly communicated CLSG offer might become a wait list option.

Needmoresleep hit the nail on the head - it is not that complicated and it is not a function of a simple ratio of acceptances vs offers made. Once you drill down the postcode, prep vs state, which prep (usually combined with a postcode) - it really is quite straightforward. I can see a bit of an unknown with private vs state grammar element, but prep school combined with the postcode with the exam score achieved would give them a rock solid yield that's unlikely to deviate year on year.

Instead of doing all of the hard (ish) work above, they just chose a shortcut that works (seemingly - let's see what happens after state offers and corresponding domino effect on the waitlists elsewhere) for them rather than for the girls, parents and the overall independent schools' ecosystem.

The irony of this is that by doing what they are doing they are actually depriving themselves of useful stats for 2 years in a row. Which is especially important that they now broke away from the consortium and that would drive change in stats as well (e.g. Bute House girls not sitting it anymore as it has always been a back up to SPGS, G&L and Latymer but given they were sitting a consortium paper why not throw it in).

Fortunately, all of this 11+ nonsense is well and truly behind me and my DC, but a couple of friends' (who all come from state schools) got caught out and were absolutely shell shocked. Fortunately, they all have JAGS, SHHS and the like as alternatives (and potentially grammars) so all is well that ends well. And by the way, spending hours on Mumsnet and 11+ forums and being in the know about all of this from last year is not being switched on parents - it's borderline OCD. If I actually told my friends with DCs affected by this that they need to cancel/not organize their half-term holidays, go to the school on Monday with a deposit in hand and just part with that without knowing about grammars school, they would've laughed in my face and think I was being paranoid.

I personally find this approach abhorrent, indefensible and inherently lazy and self-serving.

Dancegirl - newsflash, I don't work for you so I don't know where you get off repeating your demands of me.

Read this thread, read my posts, read the internet - all the information your require is there. If you still can't work it out, I am not smart enough to help you.

Expat - agree with your And/or for whom it was the first option. And/or for whom it was the only option. And/or for whom £1500 was immaterial.

This process definitely works for the majority of families given offers and helps the school take more girls who are super keen to join rather than are still deciding CLSG against other great schools and options.

I don't know if this is true or not but someone was telling me that they knew someone who got their money back for one of the two schools mentioned here. They bagsied their place with a deposit but had to wait a week for another school to make their offers (and eventually decided they'd prefer the latter school). They then combed the contract and apparently gathered that if they withdrew their acceptance before the March deadline then they were entitled to a refund.

As I say, I can't vouch for the veracity of this story...

Eastlondonmum, your name may explain.

You suggest "then say it’s not top choice for many of the applicants". It really was not for many. Yes it was first choice for Islington girls, but though it was the easiest journey for us (direct and frequent bus) we were put off by the fact that most girls in our area headed for JAGS, so DD would have been an outlier. Ditto bright Chelsea girls aim for SPGS and North London girls want NCLS. All schools are a bit of a lottery even for very bright girls, so City was often an attractive fall-back. Great school, not so great journey.

Things have changed and there will be more "first choice" demand from East London. City will know their traditional acceptance rates. They can speak to other registrars to get a better take on overall demand for London school, and then they can drill down by post-code and education background. Perhaps acceptance rates hovers around 70% for Islington girls and around 30% for Chelsea girls. Or late declines happen more from girls from state primaries living in grammar school areas. Or the impact of SPGS setting geographical limits on who they will consider. Then they notice a load of applications from Canary Wharf and other "new" residential areas who don't have a lot of alternatives, or as a result of improved transport links (watch out for Cross Rail). They work it out. They might get it a bit wrong one year, but this year should not have happened.

From observation I suspect that it is slightly easier to get into very sought after academic schools if you live nearby. I suspect it is part of the decision making with schools having decided that kids do better if they can play a full part in school life and do not arrive exhausted after battling the commuter throng. As well as doing a bit of statistical modelling on acceptance rates, I think City should put more thought into embracing the fact that they now have a larger catchment for whom they are top choice.

CLSG have chosen to make it your problem

But they will also have an admin/logistics problem when some of those girls who have accepted their place then inform the school that they are not taking them up. Yes they have made a bit of cash from it, but they are then going to have to go down the waiting list which is precisely what they wanted to avoid in the first place!

Dancegirl - there is a website called google which can furnish you with information

soya would you have the decency to answer my question? I am truly interested what makes this school unique in your opinion as a current parent? Can you not share that?

there are other parents on this forum (not only this thread) who have taken a place but are apparently not definitely intending to send their child to the school. And seemingly others are also encouraging those parents not to let the school know if they are arriving or not.

If those parents are waiting for the state allocations day or are on the waiting lists for other independents, then I join those encouraging them not to let the school know. CLSG set the rules of this game. You can't fault parents for playing by them.

After last year, the school made less offers but I'm guessing that the 9 hour explosion will have been fuelled (in part) by some parents rushing to encourage others to take a place 'just in case'.

I'd be surprised if this weren't the case. The logical equilibrium for this game that CLSG have set is, indeed, that any accepted applicant with the wherewithal and any potential desire for the school must queue up at the first possible moment - just like for tickets to a sold-out concert. The only reason that didn't happen this year is that relatively few people thought it through to the conclusion.

The fact that CLSG are surprised at this outcome indicates that either a) they didn't think it through themselves, or b) they did understand the consequences and, having already screened the girls, they decided to screen explicitly for parents who worked through the game ahead of time. And/or for whom it was the first option. And/or for whom it was the only option. And/or for whom £1500 was immaterial.

Every allocation mechanism has drawbacks for somebody. At the NLCS open day last spring, a question was asked about exploding offers. The head of admission replied, "If too many girls accept our offers, that's my problem, not yours." CLSG have chosen to make it your problem.

If I were to be mean-spirited I might even suggest that any parents, who have put down the £1500 but then receive a more preferred place, take their time and inform CLSG on 17 April rather than on 02 or 07 March. After all, you've paid for the privilege of making it their problem. But, unfortunately, that would also have highly detrimental effects on girls on the CLSG waiting list who really want the place, so let's not go there.

I don’t think many, if any, are questioning that City is academically a very good school. It is indeed, on this metric, an excellent school and hence why is in such high demand despite its other perceived limitations (limited outside space, suboptimal natural light, etc.)
What I find contradicting from the posters defending the admission process is that on one side they acknowledge this high demand but then say it’s not top choice for many of the applicants and/or it’s different from other schools. I thoroughly disagree with this and ultimately it’s this myth that has resulted in the chaos experienced this year and last year, leaving those “not in the known/without heads up” at a loss.
City is clearly a top choice for many and the school knows it.

I don't think anyone can doubt that CLSG is an excellent school. I would say that this policy is so at odds with its perceived persona that it is perplexing that they would even employ such a policy in the first place.

Be that as it may, once the dust has settled, I am pretty certain that they will abandon it and move to something that better promotes the honesty, honour and integrity that the school is typically known for.

The Brexit comment was a joke in response to the post above saying how divisive it was. Maybe I should start using emojis.

Almost that was exactly our experience. Even though DD didn't get in, we left with a positive impression of the school and the feeling it was better organised than others. In our area, another top ranked indy who interviews after the test let's people know in a scattered way. We were all saying if City can manage to notify over 800 people the same day whether their DD is going forward or not, why can't this school? It just seemed like a stunt to ratchet up the anxiety.

Such a contrast to this year when they seemed to have joined the fray.

it is poor form to intimate that the school is somehow lacking compared to the other indies in London.

Well, with regard to its admissions practices this year, it frankly is! No one has bashed the quality of the academics or anything else directly related to the school. (Brexit comment was ridiculous.)

Anyway, next year will hopefully be the last round of entrance exams for us with DD2. I really, really hope we can get out before more schools think up additional 'fuck you parents and kids' routes to entry.

londonista1 wow, really, you can tell how all those who are defending the school would have voted in the referendum? Care to expand?
I think it is a tough situation to be in and for clarity I am the parent of a girl who left CLSG last year.
I wonder though the number of parents who are upset were trying to hold multiple offers? I really think there should be a system in the consortium of ranking like there is for state school applications.
When we applied, we applied to City only because we knew that is where my daughter wanted to go - we were lucky that this system wasn't in place and were able to bring the acceptance paperwork and cheque to the holding offers day and hand them in then.
And I have nothing but excellent things to say about the school and can imagine that it is horrified by what has happened.
My daughter went through an extremely traumatic experience in year 12 (unrelated to school) and CLSG were fucking brilliant to be honest.
Whilst I appreciate how upsetting this situation is for those who 'lost' out on something they may not have really considered anyway, it is poor form to intimate that the school is somehow lacking compared to the other indies in London.

I agree needmore. It mostly will be alright In time but it is bruising.
I’m so surprised this involves City as when I dealt with them 2 years ago they were imo the easiest admissions to approach. I think Rachel was in charge. Always responsive and I thought, kind.

I hope the DDs affected by this are alright. Not much of the discussion seems to have been about them and how disappointed some must be. Or the guilt some mothers might be feeling that they did not do the in depth research of admissions patterns of previous years, that some are indicating they should have done.

My DD is now first year University, but always did a lot of extra-curricular where she met girls from schools all over London, and then went to a sixth form that attracts a lot of City girls. (Eleven in her year I think.) She has since met others at University. She ruled out City early on "too much concrete" and knew she wanted co-ed. She has known girls who were happy at schools and those who were not. She has known girls who performed well at less highly-regarded schools and those who under-performed at top schools. She has met girls who moved schools because they were not happy and who thrived elsewhere.

Yes, some girls she knew loved City. Others did not. That is true for all schools. Most of the alternatives offered will also be very good schools and it is very likely that in two or three years time posters will be able to return to say their DDs are happy and thriving and that not getting a place at City was a blessing in disguise.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the City approach, it looks very poor when viewed from the perspective of a 10 year old. For that reason alone, I would be pleased my DD was not going there.

Dragthing I have had two reponses to the 15 emails (no reponses to phone calls) I’ve sent during the entire admissions process.

Sadly, your situation is not unique. Every other school has returned every phone call or email I’ve sent.

I don’t get it, are they understaffed? Do they simply not care? Or they don’t need to bother as there are enough families that will need a school place so they can treat families however they like?

Woodlanddreamer - you are of course correct about state Grammars. I stand corrected. It was another school I am not familiar with containing 'grammar' in the title. Same practice, different date.