City of London Girls withdrawing offers

Dragthing, our current school is appalled as well even though our Head warned us we must accept the offer as soon as possible if we wanted it.

Going to the press is not a bad idea...best to let everyone know how it turned out this year so they know what they are getting into next year should they want to apply.

To say it was a transparent process is not accurate. And this is supported by City’s letter withdrawing the offers and their statement that they apologise and did not expect this to happen. Doesn’t seem like a well thought out transparent process on their part at all.

As someone earlier said next year people will have to be lined up at City’s door on the day offers come out and maybe camping out days before anticipating an offer to make sure they don’t miss out.

in your particular case Drag why were you not prepared to accept the offer on the day it was received?

We have been caught out by this and DD is absolutely shattered by the abrupt withdrawal of the offer just a few days after the lovely personalised letter. 'My future is over' and 'They've ruined my life'. They are not transparent. The offer letter highlighted the deadline of 6th March and the 'offer holders open morning' next week; it gave no indication that they had applied airline-style overbooking. They seem not to appreciate that they are dealing with children.
To make matters worse we had an email the next day addressed to offer holders which gave us hope that they had in fact honoured the offer, only to have our hopes dashed once more by a retraction email in the afternoon.

Their system is badly flawed, and their handling of the situation has been callous. Why over-offer to this extent? DD's current school are appalled.
I am considering going to the press.

The boys system is annoying as you get offers at different times but I prefer that to these exploding offers! Dreading when dd goes through it all!!

"Isn't their job to do the best for the school, the current students and to achieve the best future students, rather than to continue with an applications approach which has caused many problems and can be avoided?"

Yes. They could manage their system like nearly every other school. All of whom are facing the sample pressures. And who get their numbers right. And are doing so without using exploding offers.

Yes, it's a response to the pressures you list. But not a good one. And not something that those pressures must invariably lead to.

Whatever the verbiage, they are making offers they will not honour.

Ah - see I have cross posted with many people about the managing dcs' expectations!

Yes, some dparents will say it's entirely their decision, others will definitely want to involve the dc in the choice. Depends on the dc, the family dynamic etc. I think a dc can sometimes sense things about a school, and whether it will suit them, that the dparents do not - so would give them a say although not necessarily the final decision. Not saying the other approach is wrong though!

This makes me wonder why the common offer day is not just the same day as state school offers. It wouldn't solve all the problems cw refers to, but would help those parents who are applying as a back-up if they don't get the state school they want.

I am not sure about the argument that people have had enough time to make their mind up before the offers come out. If you are giving your dc a say (which some parents will) you may well not have wanted to encourage dc to decide on a firm preference before the offer day, in case dc don't get an offer from the preferred schools. So some parents leave detailed discussions with dc about preferences until after they know what offers they've got. As people say, next year dcs/dparents will need to decide even faster.

I think the difficulty for schools in London particularly has increased in recent years, with parents putting in for so many exams. Not he fact this has happened and so many people have multiple offers has actually destabilised the system.

Many schools go with the Trinity agreement of a set offer day. Many are ready to offer well before, but don't offer early because this would just create a bigger arms race. Many make clear that an interview means a place is very likely, but won't go as far as saying an offer will come until the actual date. Interestingly some will tell people who are there for scholarship/bursary interviews that this means they will definitely get an offer of some sort - I guess the scholarship ability ones are the kids they really want, so some will make it clear they will get an offer in advance.

Some schools are in a position where they will offer a certain number of places and perhaps 1/6 will accept - because most parents have applied to 4 or 5 or 6 schools. For some schools, some years 5/6 accept and another year 1/6 accept - it can vary wildly. So knowing how many places to offer is very difficult. And why does it matter? Parents seem to be suggesting schools should look to the needs of prospective parents and not consider the implications of the whole process on themselves - well this is just daft, because the school's first responsibility is to its current pupils and to securing the future of the school, not to any individual parent or group of parents who might like to sit on offers.
It matters to the school, because by having a deadline after national offers day on 1 March (5 March is a common acceptance date) many schools find that when they wait to go to WL until then, many of the WL people have already accepted another offer and paid a deposit and now won't take a place. That isn't good for the school. Some of these would have taken it if they had an offer initially. And the school then has to go down the WL to fill and we even hear stories of schools (v good schools too) having to phone people who didn't even make it to interview, to see if they'd like a place - because they need to fill. Perhaps parents don't have much sympathy for this and the plight of the school with un filled places, but it impacts on everyone in the school in some way. And what about if they over offer and get too many students saying yes. They can't then turn some away but must honour the offers. The implications of that can be serious too - in some cases an extra form needs to be put on, costing a lot of money - necessary, but just because of a few above what could be fitted into the existing arrangement. This then has cost implications for staffing and buildings, and sometimes there just isn't space without some classes somewhere in the school being squashed into less good facilities - again it's an impact on the school and its existing people.
London schools (and City won't be the only one, but others might be less affected due to location) have been hugely affected by the increase in schools that people sit for. There has been huge uncertainty and control over numbers, with negative implications and they simply decided it had to stop and they didn't need to suffer the consequences and ultimately the children in the school didn't need to suffer the consequences anymore. I think exploding offers is a bold move, because people don't react well to it and because most schools aren't popular enough to do it or if they are, might be too scared to do it.
In the end it has benefitted the school - they are full with people who absolutely wanted City and who the school had selected as qualified. Isn't their job to do the best for the school, the current students and to achieve the best future students, rather than to continue with an applications approach which has caused many problems and can be avoided?

That’s exactly it sooooo. I’ve worked very hard not to let dd get over invested in any option and made sure she understands there are financial considerations for me as well.

Agree 100% Firefox and Railworker - it's very hard to gauge where and indeed if your dc will get offers and so part of that is managing expectations for them. I know some people who had definite first choice schools but we didn't and we didn't encourage ds to as we didn't want to set him up for disappointment. We wouldn't be tempting fate by "discussing e-transfers, fax confirmations and iban codes at the interview stage if not before" as we genuinely weren't that confident as to where ds would get an offer and we didn't want to raise his hopes or ours falsely. We knew we would be happy enough with any of the schools we had applied to but now that we have a choice we want to make sure it's the best one for him and us as a family. We've all waited to hear from the schools re when the results come out and all been told a date when offer letters have to be accepted, why then is it so unreasonable for people to want to do a confirmatory tour of the schools before making what is a huge financial commitment. I don't have a dd but if I did CLSG would be off the list of options for that reason alone.

Completely agree helpmum!

The parent is the adult, the parent is paying the fees. Does a child really understand the implication?
I’d be making an adult decision.

The problem with viewing all very seriously prior to offers is that you/your child may get their heart set on a school and then never receive an offer. This is especially hard on these young children.

From the exploding offer system alone this is a school I will never consider for my daughter - I think it’s fairly arrogant of them. The London day school scene is fantastically competitive and it is difficult to get a clear picture until you have that/those offers actually in your hand. Difficult to emotionally invest in a school if you’re not absolutely certain you’ll be offered a place, given that these schools turn down more students than they accept. However bright the child there is always room for an off-day - this, surely is why children sit for more than one school in the first place! Why wouldn’t you be making a decision based on facts ie. genuine offers, rather than fantasy?

When so many other independent schools can manage their list without this ticking time bomb approach why can’t CLSG do ??
Poor taste !!

As schoolmadness2016 infers, where does it all end? What will they do if next year if they have hordes of parents all trying to physically hand in forms? Can you imagine if you were a parent in the queue and were told "sorry we've reached the limit"?

In fact, taking it to its logical conclusion, why bother adhere to the Trinity Group of schools agreement on having a common offer date (9th Feb this year)? Why not simply send out the offers a day or so after the interviews have been conducted and steal a march on everyone else?

As I said earlier, it's their conduct that is more contemptuous than the policy itself

Agree with TheAntiBoop

Hardly any schools use exploding offers. I think it does tell you something about the attitude of the school towards parents.

Why don't they offer less places and have a more effective waiting list system? If they want quick answers reduce the time to accept.

Seems to work for other schools and is a lot less stressful

i'm sure my husband would have been discussing e-transfers, fax confirmations and iban codes at the interview stage if not before.
i find it very strange that people are wanting "one more look around" or to discuss it with the child at this stage in what can be a one year process.
personally i see the timing issue and the holding of multiple offers as a problem that should be addressed in the long run. if the process of applying was smoother the need to tutor and prep might naturally correct itself.

My prediction for 2019 would be parents queuing up at City’s door at 8am after results day with the requisite paperwork and cheque book to purchase their option. And I shudder to think what happens if more parents are queued up than places - they would need to use the proceeds from this year’s option sales deposits to fund a riot police presence .
Disgraceful.

Of course you're right that it needs to be spelled out at each and every stage of the application process. And yes, warnings of having reached a certain capacity made clear. I know that they did warn when they reached certain capacities last year.
I know that they filled faster than they'd imagined last year and it seems were caught on the hop again this year. It's not good enough, nor is the bungling of info about interviews etc etc reported on here.

Correct none of that happened.

Good points Choco but it isn't the policy itself that rankles but more their CONDUCT.

Did they explicitly talk about it at the Heads talk at Open Day? My friends who were there tell me not.

Did they put a real time update on their website or Twitter Feed, so that offer holders could see where they were capacity wise? My friends tell me they didn't?

Did they at least email all offer holders when they had already received say 50% acceptances to warn them that they were in danger of missing out? My friends tell me that they rec over no such warning.

If CLSG really believe in this policy, then they should be willing explicitly and overtly stand behind it. Simply slipping it into their T&C's in the offer letter isn't good enough imo. (And I have no vested interest as I have 2 DS's)

I think it rankles because it isn't a typical practice and because often people who are paying, or considering paying, feel entitled to time and some feel entitled to hold lots of offers - it challenges this rather.

Perhaps it will become more widespread?

In the end, City do it, because they can. They are popular enough to fill within a couple of days with people from their first round of offers (which admittedly is of course bigger than the no of places, hence them exploding). People who absolutely want it as their definite choice understand the system and make sure they can get the acceptance in. They don't go on holiday or not have access to a second signature, in the same way anything with a really tight timeframe can be met by people who really want it. The school has suffered from essentially lots of time wasters in the past. I realise people won't like that phrase, but the approach means only those seriously considering a place visit and apply.
I think it's widely accepted that the whole thing with people applying to loads of schools has got out of hand - it's based on fear and what everyone else is doing. Perhaps this will help reduce this a little and if this process is used elsewhere, a positive will be that children don't have to sit multiple exams in multiple locations.
Of course not all schools are as popular as City and couldn't dream of using this system. They massively over offer because they know that most won't accept and they are down the packing order.
Indeoendent education, in the end is a business. This school is aiming to optimise its own position given the location and circumstances they find themselves in. It ruffles some feathers, but at the end of the day, City has more certainty of numbers and of the quality of their students, than if they used the traditional approach. That's why they do it and parents who were always dead set on it and who have understood how it works (and it is clear) understand how it benefits the school. They are more interested in that than keeping lots of people who won't be going there anyway happy, the the detriment of their future. In a free market for education, that's what you get.

I don't know about others but our prep was quite strict on the amount of time dc's could take off to look around schools. ds has a chronic health condition which means regular hospital appointments which they have been willing to accommodate (time off every week for the last few years) but we were told flat out that ds wouldn't be allowed to attend group tours in school hours for all schools we were applying to as it would mean missing too much school. We were told to apply and then take a good look around after we had received our offers. As parents we did go and see every school and ds managed to attend Saturday open days for all the schools we applied for but one carefully choreographed morning was not enough imo to get a view of the schools for ds, who is now completely undecided and says he has three 'first choices'. Thankfully we don't have a dd or we would definitely have missed out on City as ds would not have been able to make a decision in that short a time. We are not 'sitting on offers', and I contacted all schools the day we received our offers to ask for another look around, but we aren't willing to make that decision until we have done those second tours which will have to wait until after half term.