City of London Girls withdrawing offers

The point you are missing is that no other school feels the need to do this

I know a few girls who sat city without really thinking they would get in. The offer holder day would have been invaluable for them. Doesn't mean they aren't right for the school because they wanted to make a well informed decision.

I think they can both think it is the right policy for them and also recognise it might not be popular and apologise for it. Perhaps it shows more humanity to say it's necessary but to acknowledge the difficulties of it too.
As they say 'it's not a situation they set out to be in' - ie the many many applicants who have no real intention of choosing the school, which then make it almost impossible for them to correctly offer without either over or under filling.

I could buy the argument that City “has the balls” if their email saying the offers were being withdrawn didn’t say “we apologise for this happening, it’s not a situation we set out to be in”. So are they lying to us then if this was such a bold move on their part? If not then it’s another example of how terribly managed their admission process was/is this season.

I think City will be glad if fewer people apply. They would rather have fewer of those who have already decided than loads of people who have applied to 6 schools and are still so very uncertain, that the chances of their top choice being City is small.

Why are people applying to so many? They cannot possibly want all of them equally. Why can't people visit on open days and make a close to definite choice, narrowing to just a couple? The idea that it's impossible to know until later is simply not true and if people were given an 8 week acceptance period, many would take the full time to choose and claim they needed it. People will take all the time given to them to make a choice, however long or short.
When people apply to state schools, they must make their preference order at the point of application. They visit the schools before and they choose. That's it. It's done. If they want to change their preferences later they have to go on waiting lists.
The only reason I can see for why people cannot decide, is they have applied to so many schools that they haven't been able to visit before or not to visit sufficiently to choose, which is due to having to visit far too many, to get a proper idea about the serious contenders. This large scale hedging of bets is at the root of all these problems because it leads to multiple offer holders who then feel overwhelmed by choice and feel making a choice can be left until after application rather than before it.
Post offer open days are marketing exercises, aimed to persuade people to choose a particular school - quite what someone gets from those, or why they cannot ask their questions before this point, is beyond me. I think some people actually enjoybtheblomg drawn out process and trailing round multiple schools to visit numerous open days and marketing events, becaue somehow they feel they are being wooed, and finally selecting is often some kind of a wrench, when you have all the goodies in your hands but ultimately can only have one.

I know it's a fine line and parents are paying customers. Schools clearly do go out of their way to put on a good display and sell their schools. There is a line however and schools need to have some control over numbers and who they want. Schools that say they manage fine with offers under the usual system, clearly don't want to tell parents how nightmarish it is to decide how many offers to make and about the nail biting days when they wait to see how many accept or over accept and if they will go to WL. Schools are very careful to never give very exact numbers of offers made or percentages accepted - parents would be shocked if they realised that even the most popular schools face lots of declines, but if you think about it, if people have applied to 3 top schools, any of the 3 could be first choice, making the other 2 declines.

I think I actually admire City for having the balls to address the problem, for the benefit of their school and its future, rather than feeling the need to suck up to the many prospective parents who are never going to put City as their first choice. It might be unpopular, but at the end of the day, they will be more full with first choice applicants and that is their key concern.

I think as knowledge about this practice becomes more widespread, there will be a decline in numbers applying to City. In my experience, not many people have an out and out first choice at the start of the process and unless you were very, very sure it was the school you wanted for your DD (or had money to burn) why would you bother to apply there?

It's perfectly natural for one's preferred order of schools to change as the process progresses. We applied to 4 schools for DS. He got offers from all 4, two with scholarships (and this can certainly change the order of preference). We decided on the school for him as a result of their offer-holders evening, which gave us a much better feel for the school than the very overcrowded open day had done. On offers day it would have been our second, or even third, choice.

Thankfully we won't have to do 11+ again but if we did, having been through it twice, I wouldn't touch City with a barge-pole.There a plenty of other equally good (or better) schools to choose from which don't use this ridiculous practice.

I highly doubt many schools will follow the City example. Their systems are working just fine. We called the other school our DD was interested in to make sure the offer was safe and they said they would never go to a system of exploding offers as it goes against the core values of the school.

And it’s not just state schools families are waiting to hear from, it’s international schools as well and those offers are not out until the end of February.

As for sitting on offers, or Head encouraged us not to make deposits and hold places we aren’t truely interested in for the current students applying but also to consider the reputation of our current school’s prospective students. By taking advantage of the system and holding on to many offers it can leave a bad impression on how our school advises us to handle the process.

For many Paying a deposit to hold a space does not mean they are taking the place, it means they played City’s game well this year.

Thankfully I cannot imagine any/many other top schools doing this as routine practice.

Somehow (to name a few) G&L, Latimer Upper, Forest, CLSB, KCS, SPS, Westminster, Alleyns, Dulwich, Whitgift etc etc manage to get by without issuing fake offers (a term I prefer to use for schools issuing offers that they will not inltimately honour). Only Channing & CLSG appear to doing this and my personal view is that it reflects a lack of confidence, honour and integrity.

The good news is that the vast majority of brilliant girls and co-ed schools do offer real offers.

The thing is, next year if all dparents know about this, then even getting there the first day may not be enough - you may arrive at the school/e-mail your acceptance the same day (or 9 am the following day if that's when the period for acceptances 'opens'), only to find you've been pipped at the post.

Then, if the other highest in the league table schools have all adopted the exploding offer approach, the dparent turns to the second choice school - but may have already missed it. In fact, you could end up missing all of the exploding offers if all the 'top' (ie highest in league table, though that is a contentious definition I agree) schools adopt them. But perhaps they will not!

The other schools will get quicker decline of offers, if parents follow up their City acceptance by declining the others fast - City has sent emails encouraging that. Many parents will, but some will still sit on other offers - it isn't entirely rational, but people often find it hard to turn down other good offers until they absolutely must, even when they have no intention of accepting them.

I'd imagine a 2 tier system will develop. Very popular schools like City will use systems like the exploding offers one, ensuring they fill quickly, the first choice applicants. Parents will just get used to it and be quick off the mark if they want a place, as they would be, if they wanted a holiday or flight on the first day they are available, before they sell out. Other schools who are not so popular will have to stick with the old system because they know and accept that they are not always first choice. They will have to go to WL with all its problems as they have in the past.

I do think the offer holder visits can be very useful and may lead to a different preference from the one you originally thought you (and your dc, now four or five months older than when looking round before the applications) would have. This policy means you can't wait for the offer holder day.

What is the logical end-point here? I'm trying to work it out. It means yes everyone who wants a place there will need to be even quicker off the mark next year.

Will other schools react by doing the same? - do they think they are losing potential students, or do they take the view that those parents who immediately accept the CLSG offer would have ended up doing so 3 weeks later anyway - so at least this way the other schools find out sooner and can go to the WL if necessary.

We found ourselves in this unfortunate position last year. Coming from a state primary and no previous knowledge of this exploding offer concept, we naively assumed parents would wait for national offer day or, at least, attend the planned offers holders meetings before finalising their decisions. We had no heads up from our headteacher, which, I believe, puts state school applicants at a further disadvantage. Anyway, on a positive note, we accepted another school for DD and she is extremely happy there. I thought she would have been disappointed about the city experience but she was soon over it. Possibly it helped that city was not her favourite school as she found it a bit claustrophobic and did not like the lack of natural light. It was however our favourite due to the short commute, 20 minutes compared to 45 for the current school. I find it ridiculous that some parents would deliberately have their kids travel one hour to school because it’s a few position higher up on some league tables while they have perfectly good schools on their doorstep, so we lost out on our most local independent option. But then everyone has different priorities.
For all of those on this chat who had their City offers withdrawn, I share your disappointment, but don’t despair. Choose from one of your other options and you will see that your DD will fit in perfectly fine and will have in her class girls as intellectually able.

City are not unique in the dilemmas they face yet they seem to be one of very few schools that use this system

Schools like City do lose out by going right up to the deadline and honouring all offers.
If they promise to honour all offers, they will have to make fewer offers. Even with this, they may still get too many acceptances for their listed buildings which cannot be altered, or find they haven't enough because 7/8 of those they offered to had another top school as their first choice in the end. By the time they go to WL, many of those (who also had another as their true top choice) have gone elsewhere and they have to accept a lower standard or simply not fill.
They are losing out. Their exploding offer system means they can get the right number. They can over offer and know they can accept the right number. They have effectively gone to WL in advance, by over offering, but only to the point they are happy to do so. And they are full before the end of half term, whilst other schools face weeks of uncertainty over numbers, plus the knock on financial costs of that over many years.
Openness about the policy is key and the information is put very clearly. Why any parent about to invest in a project effectively costing over £100k wouldn't carefully read the terms of the offer and thoroughly research what has happened in recent years in response to the schools approach, I simply cannot understand.

Surely people wouldn't buy a house without thoroughly investigating first? Surely people wouldn't expect to get a sought after first class seat on a plane, which know seelsmout within hours, three weeks later?

Parents had the info. There might have been lots of cock ups over interviews and other paperwork, but the info about when they had received enough acceptances, other offers would be withdrawn was clear. No one could know when that would occur - not the school nor the parents, so if you really wanted a place, you would do everything to get that in - either queueing, or as others have said, by sending the deposit electronically and the paperwork too - yes, it required a bit of pre-planning and thought to do so, but if it's your first choice and you've read the terms because you're seriously interested, surely you act and don't just hope or assume you'll have 4 days or a week or 3 weeks. Although it's hard, I think really,some parents messed up here if it really was their definite top choice - they took their eyes off the ball and either didn't read the terms or didn't look into what had happened last year, so heeded the warnings that time really was of the essence. If you understand the process in the year before, when you apply, you simply don't plan a holiday over offers time, or leave yourself in a position where you still don't know if you want it - you respond to the circumstances to make sure that you can get a place. I find it astonishing that people didn't do that. And I expect the same thing will happen next year too.

Is it the equivalent of not getting your state school application in on time, or not returning the acceptance form? I don't know.

It's a real shame for those families who really wanted places for definite, but I think they have to take responsibility for it rather than blaming the school. Some people certainly will pull out later once state school offers come in....so if it genuinely is top choice, sending the paperwork and a cheque and an email stating it is definitely top choice, might still result in a place. Of course, that will be later from the WL - the experience many other parents have to go through with other schools because of the non-exploding offer system that those schools operate. For those who weren't WListed, but suddenly find themselves in that position, perhaps it then clarifies a little how unpleasant that position is and that City mostly avoid it by their approach. And finally, when City do go to their WL in the end, for a few places, perhaps as always they will find that actually lots of those people then turn down the offer - again, illustrating how this happens to all schools and the problems it causes. Parents are happy to be the beneficiaries of multiple offers and choice and to turn down lots of offers - but they simply don't really consider the effect this has on the schools and other families.

"I do agree with Chocolatewombat for the most part regarding the need to employ exploding offers because of parents holding onto multiple offers"

This is very rare (because of size of non-refundable payment taken on acceptance - deposit straight away plus non-refundable first term).

What is and always has been common is for parents to use the time until the offer deadline to weight up which school they really want, perhaps going to offer holder open days, and considering best fit for their DC now (not rough idea when they applied months or years ago).

If schools act with integrity and honour their offers, everyone wins (and yes, schools do get their numbers right with that approach too). As PP put it, HMC (and GDST) endorse this as the right thing.

It really is a case of what ethos you want in a school.

Exploding offers are not common.

City boys don't and they have equally high application to offer ratios. Our local boys school has an even worse ratio but manage to use their waiting list effectively despite being one of the earliest schools to offer

I do agree with Chocolatewombat for the most part regarding the need to employ exploding offers because of parents holding onto multiple offers. You cannot possibly have 8 first choices. This seriously affects other families where your 7th best choice is their first and their child maybe number 8 on a WL. All parents naturally want the best for their kids and all schools want the best and brightest students.

I am a CLSG parent so obviously I have a different viewpoint to the majority on this thread. I can honestly say the experience of incorrect emails etc couldn't be further from our experience last year. Part of the reason we chose city was the clear communication and very precise emails which arrived exactly when they said they would. So the experience detailed here is really sad to hear and I'm sure the confusion must be awful for those affected. That aside, I doubt however in the change of admissions registrar meant that the wording on the offer paperwork was changed. It was really clear it was an overoffering situation which is normal for indie schools - although they may be less popular so not so visibly affected. City had between 800-900 girls sitting the exam for 75 places available (assuming all 25 from the prep move up which is generally the case). They cannot put on a 'bulge' class as the school is in a listed building. There simply isn't the space. This is a fact. Indeed the school's expansion plan announced recently involves utilising basement space and a current car park. This year I know they over- offered by far less than last year but it is impossible for the school to know if city is all parents first choice. And it was possible last year to scan the offer-emailed paperwork and send the deposit by bank transfer and all acceptances were recorded in strict deposit received order so no need to queue around the block. Last year the exploding offer finished ahead of the offer holders Morning, and this did seem unexpected by the school. From our point of view, the 'we are 65% full' email meant that there would've been less than 27 places available to everyone, hence we got a wriggle on. I do appreciate that due to the speed of acceptances this email did not appear to have been sent this year which is frustrating for those off on hols etc. Those places got accepted in under 12 hours. However, last year all offer holders were entitled to attend even if they had missed the deadline. My understanding is that the WL did not move to any substantial degree last year and this may be because of the fact that genuine 'this is our first choice' parents accepted very quickly. I know that there does seem to be more local girls to the school than in previous years so an exploding offer may well contribute to this. The school year after year has suffered from parents being offered a place and then rejecting citing 'travel issues' or 'commuting distance'. This has been a constant source of frustration for the school as parents know where it is located.

City was always our first choice and although my DD did receive other offers (and two of those were substantial scholarship offers) the standard access to non academic activity - music/drama/art was very important to us. As was the socially diverse backgrounds that the school attracts due to the generous funding from the livery companies etc. We knew she would be offered places at Grammars (and she was) but despite the excellence in results, the arts provisions were being cut because the entrance examination did not encourage those children to come through the system.

My thoughts remain the same as last year in that primary and prep schools are complicit in this 'educational arms race' and should only complete a maximum of 4 references for any pupil to reduce the situation where it is possible to hold 5/6/7/8offers.

I do wish those disappointed all the best in resolving the situation but if you are still genuinely interested,I would return the paperwork and explain in writing that if the WL moves, you would accept the place.

The head at SHHS said that it’s really not complicated to work out how many offers to make and there’s no excuse for exploding offers.

We’ve just got a naggy email from Channing hassling is for a deposit. We’re away and really want to revisit. It’s making me lean towards Shhs (Drag, are you thinking same?)

Why is it such a disaster to go to wait list anyway? The selection is so arbitrary that I bet there are loads of smart kids there. And if these schools are as flipping good as they say they are, they should be able to do well by all pupils.

Dd had scholarship interview at a co Ed that doesn’t even send offers until the 15th!

We didn’t actually apply to City. Bizarrely that didn’t stop them sending us an email rejecting our daughter!

SHHS aren't innocent in all this either though as their 4+ system leads to queueing round the block (unless they've changed it in the last couple of years).

I can't see how they can continue it as they'll have a queue round the block next year and parents who can afford to lose a deposit will take the place regardless. So they'll end up havibg to dip into the waiting list anyway.

The only people who seem happy with the system are people with girls at the school

In contrast to City's cavalier and insensitive policy I was struck by this from South Hampstead High School. Their offer letter states 'Please note, however, that we will of course honour all offers until our closing date, in line with HMC and GSA protocol'.

@Ivebeenaroundtheblock - I seriously had no idea I needed to act so quickly. Maybe I should have paid more attention to the small print bu I'm a lone parent with a full time job and I don;t ahve anyone to share the load and double check. We came away on holiday on Saturday - we're abroad now - and it didn't occur to me that I needed to take the papers straight over on Friday. I did book straight onto the Offer Holders morning which was scheduled for next week. I feel so badly let down and I cannot tell you how distressed my daughter was.

drag that’s awful. As I said I only knew from reading MN last year. I think there will still be a lot of movement - so the place may come up again. But I share your concern and distress at this.

Schools are working together to make the process less stressful and give students time to consider their offers. 11 year olds need that and can't be expected to have the emotional resilience to deal with exploding offers.

Imagine if all schools used exploding offers. What a horrific process that would be.

City clearly doesn't care about that and also has no interest in coordination with other schools for overall and wider benefit. It sets a selfish tone and a poor example which is why we let their offer explode in their office and choose another school.

I am sorry Drag. This sounds heartbreaking. Is the school at this point reachable by phone ? Perhaps if you explain that it was your first choice and you were away for half term ( and happy to pay the deposit ASAP) they could put your dd on the top of the waitlist. I am certain a few families will pull out . Does your daughter have other offers ? What absolute white behaviours by the school. If it doesn’t work out I would def go to the press !