City of London Girls withdrawing offers

As I have said previously there can be no defence of emails sent out in error. However, there are a number of misnomers on this thread which I do understand parents of disappointed offer holders might be perpetuatied but as a current CLSG parent I think should be challenged in the interest of balance to the discussion.

1. There are apparently 'no local people' to the school despite the school being in the middle of the city's largest residential estate 🤔. There are MANY girls currently attending CLSG who live in the Barbican itself.
2. CLSG is somehow a 'back up' school to those who are unsuccessful at gaining a place at a Grammar school. Including my own child, I know of girls in her Year who gained and turned down places at Grammar schools in Essex/east London/Kent and Henrietta Barnett in favour of City. In fact, Grammar schools for many were back up to not gaining a place at City. Not the reverse.
3. CLSG is not 'first choice' for the majority. I can only speak from experience again that most parents in my DD's year turned down both Grammars and other Indies (London and otherwise) in favour of City. It was unequivocally first choice owing to the diversity in student type and emphasis placed on non-academic prowess (music/drama/art/sport) as well as academic prowess. My own child only sat other schools on the basis that 75 places and 850 girls sitting the exam are not fantastic odds if your child has an off day.
4. No child Is offered a place who fails to meet the required standard considered high enough to keep up. No one knows who received the 'highest' score so it is not correct to suggest that it is possible that the 'brightest' students go elsewhere. It is however possible that the difference between girls who gained a place and those who didn't was down to parental action once the offer information was received. All successful candidates received the email at the same time. Not in order of score achievement.
5. All paperwork and payment could be returned via email/bank transfer if parents had checked. No time off work for any parent was necessary to gain a place.
6. All schools over offer. Not all schools occupy a listed building with literally no space to expand anywhere. Not all schools are as popular- hence first come, first served.
7. My own child attended a prep. We didn't know about exploding offers at the time. Nor did our head. We did however read that it was an easyJet style offer system and drew our own conclusions on what we needed to do.

I think it’s completely callous to argue that “if you really wanted the school then cancel your holiday/take a day off work/drag yourself from your deathbed etc”. I am sorry but these girls and their families have just gone through an absolute wringer with the stress and hard work of 11+ prep, writing papers, being interviewed etc. And now the school takes the implicit view of “oh well, we’ve found it a bit annoying using the waitlist and want an easy shortcut so go ahead and cancel your holiday that you have been looking forward to for months and months ( cause you spent xmas revising and stressing ). This was meant to be your carefree break from it all - offers in etc . Time to relax - oh, not so fast! Cause our admin are an absolute shambles ( sending emails and retracting them straight after , rejecting girls who didn’t even apply, not returning phone calls and emails ...) and can’t get our shite together ...

What City did is completely unprofessional - no matter whether they said "first come, first serve" or not.

All top academic schools are oversubscribed. St.pauls is oversubscribed. Godolphin is oversubscribed. Latymer is oversubscribed. The list goes on and on. Yet ALL these super academic schools somehow manage their offers, do not resort to exploding offers and stick to their firm deadline (5th of March this year).
Have City never heard about statistics? Why other top schools can manage the number of their offers and City can't?

It is highly unethical to close the books in 9 business hours. What next? Renting an ambulance to submit your acceptance forms, because traveling by tube may get you there too late? City talk SO much about equal opportunities, etc, etc and yet in this case they clearly disadvantage single parents, people working shifts, people who can't afford to lose the deposit, people who are waiting for grammar school offers, and so on.

Bottom line - they made way too many offers. As simple as that.

My daughter also got a City offer this year. I am glad it was not her first choice. I was on holiday anyway and would not have been able to come on Monday. Imagine the heartbreak if it was her top choice?

Two years ago they closed the books around a week before deadline. About the same or a bit earlier last year. So anyone who applied this year would Be right to assume they have time at least until the end of holidays - especially the offers day being the 20th!!

This is a very bad publicity for the school, I am afraid.

I'm interested in how many "unhonoured" offers they made but I doubt we will find out about that

The story is in tonight's Evening Standard

Even when it is made clear, and no-one gas said it isn't, it remain the case than offers are made that will not be honoured.

How this sits with your ideas on integrity are a question of morals and ethos.

CLSG needs families who support this system (rather than the ones which get the same outcome in terms of the right number of desirable pupils but where offers are made in a way which means they can be honoured) . London is a big place, there will be enough. Diversity in the marketplace and all that.

But none of that makes offers, made when you know you cannot meet them, a practice which looks honourable or reflects well when seen from POV of the lack of need to do it al all (as evidenced by majority practice)

It is not unique in having listed buildings and no space for more classes. And those schools can still honour offers. It seems, from the wider persoective that CLSG just comes up with one justification after another, none of which stand up to scrutiny, especially when you look at all the other schools getting their numbers right without recourse to this.

Opting for this, when they could instead have opted to implement a well known, tried and tested system at the standard where it works well (ie nearly every other school) is of course their prerogative. But that does not make it beyond reproach, and doesn't answer the question of why the school could not meet the admin standards of all those other schools who have same pressures and constraints but do it well.

Absolutely - if the situation had not been made clear.

City applicants have it made clear that more offers ar made than places and offers cease to stand when enough deposits have been received.

The school has decided it does need to use this system. Their unique position in terms of geography and restrictions on their listed building and limited physical space and the consequences of these for applications, ability to judge who has the school as first choice and to handle particularly over-acceptance have all been covered.

In the end, the information was clear. People didn't have to apply this year if they didn't like the terms and in future, if they don't like what has happened, they don't need to apply either. People who say they didn't know are simply abdicating responsibility for reading the paperwork carefully and realising and planning ahead that anything which can 'sell out' leaves you at risk of missing out,if you're not there at the start of the acceptance period.

It isn't the gentlest, fluffiest approach. The school has decided that the approach used by other schools affects or potentially affects them so detrimentally that it cannot be used anymore. They have developed a new one and made it clear. If people decide that this approach shifts them from seriously wanting the school to absolutely not wanting it....so be it. Most serious people who really want the school won't decide this, but work with the system and the school will fill as it has this year. No one is obliged to apply, but I would say everyone is responsible for understanding the terms and implications of the terms if they do apply,

It's interesting that the 'justification' for this shitty system is repeated so often. But in a context-free way. The context being that every other school faces the same problems and difficulties but manage to get the right number of the right calibre pupils

There is absolutely no need for a school to use this system.

It's a question of ethos. What level of integrity do you want? If you want a place that stands by its offers, then think hard about schools which don't.

Because if you had queued up, registered to buy your new build, gone through lots of hoops to qualify, and finally been accepted you would be horrified if 9 hours later you were told 'sorry, all gone'.

It is top choice for more applicants than it has places for. However, it is a back up for lots of people due to there being closer schools or state schools available,

And I agree that no-one knew it would be 9 hours - the school didn't know either and will never know when places will be 'sold out' until it happens. Given that no-one knows and no-one can predict, it would seem safe and necessary to be there at the opening of acceptances - doesn't that seem logical. Anyone arriving any later faces a risk of places being 'sold out'.

Where something is limited and there is an 'opening time' even without knowledge of previous sell-out points, I would have thought that the risk of sell out was pretty clear.

Single parents, people working, people on holiday etc etc all have the same information as everyone else. Yes, it might be more difficult for them to put plans in place, but no more difficult than accessing anything else which has an 'opening time' and is in limited supply - if you really want it, you sort it in advance and think ahead. I bet lots of those who accepted places had decided not to go on holiday, to take a day off work or to get someone else to take it in for them - they had planned ahead, because they knew there was a risk that delay would mean no place.

wombat since City didn't know this was going to happen and I only knew from MN that I had a few days, I'm not sure why ordinary working parents who are not in the know should know that this time it would be 9 hours.

As it happened, I got there. But somewhat "illegally" as I was off sick at the time. As a single parent with very unwell parents to care for, I'm not sure what contingency you think should be in place. In any case, it's unnecessary -as all the other schools demonstrate - and a bit unpleasant.

As a matter of interest, does anyone know if CLSG ever had to go to its waiting list in "the old days" ie pre exploding offers? Indeed, did it even have a waiting list? I don't think I've ever heard of anyone being on it (though obviously I don't know that many people so that is not very conclusive!)

I'd always assumed it did fill its places from its first round offers - it is such a highly sought after school and I'd assumed it was 'top choice' for many many applicants.

I don't get this thing about 'couldn't get there' - if someone wants something enough, they put plans and contingency plans in place to get there.

When people want to buy new houses off plan which require a deposit cheque, if they are serious, they make sure they are there before the time starts and they change their plans or organise for someone else to go for them if they can't - and they know that if they don't do this and go the following day, they may have missed out. No one knows exactly when all the houses will be sold, but you don't take chances if you really want one.

No one would expect the state sector to consider their school application if they had missed the deadline due to illness, or work. A deadline - either an opening point or a closing point, is just that.

We are used to things selling out if we aren't quick off the mark. We don't expect to reserve lots of new build houses without paying at the point of reservation. If you like, City is simply saying to those who receive offers 'you are now qualified to apply for a school place - it's first come, first served. Until you pay, you don't have a formal offer'

KeepCalm, you are right that loads have it as a back-up. Loads really want state grammars or another more local independent, but apply because it is good academically and they feel they need multiple back ups. If everyone was offered a place, a large proportion of them would turn it down. So in order to fill they do need to over offer - all schools over offer, but City needs to do it more than most....and there is always a risk of over filling then and as has been said, their site again, more than most can't cope with a bulge class.

Despite there being lots of independent schools in London, City is different due to its location making it a potential back up but not first choice of far more families, plus their more restricted site making the hilly uncertain outcomes from offers, more potentially difficult. I do t think people understand the different position City is in, based on these 2 factors - they decide it is just greed, or inability to plan their offers.

If the school makes say 100 offers for 70 places, it could be that in one year 80 will say no because in the end they choose the state grammar or a closer independent. The school then has to fill 50 places from a WL where again the majority have a different top choice, so they have to go far down. Perhaps they have to go as low as the 400th person in order to fill, because once you're at WL, you find most have accepted somewhere else in the first round, or have another WL offer too. It's equally feasible that in a given year of 800 applicants, the 100 offers do just by chance go to 90 families who have it as top choice and all 90 say 'yes' and the school now has to have a bulge class - which due to lack of space means some classes being taught in less than ideal classrooms or having peculiar timetables....not really what people are paying for.

So here what happens - the school makes offers to perhaps 250 applicants. They are well over offering, figuring that many won't have the school as top choice, but there should be 70 in there who are committed and keen. The first 70 turning up with the paperwork and deposit get the places. These are people who really wanted the places. They might not be the top 70 performers in the exam, but the school is confident all of them can cope with the pace of the school and do well. There maybe some who would have chosen the school and didn't reply in time - it's a shame, but the terms were made clear....and the rest who didn't return the paperwork wouldn't have done so now or in 3 weeks anyway, because they have already or will decide that somewhere else is their preference.

I think City's response is to its very particular location and restricted site which makes them more susceptible and in a more extreme way, to the problems that arise from not knowing how many applicants really want the school and will say yes.

when the danger of this was very clear

This is the whole point - it wasn't clear. We actually had 9 business hours to get there - no one knew that would happen, not even City. I work FT and am a single parent - it could have been impossible for me to get there in that time frame. As it happened I basically have been off sick with flu for two weeks and dragged myself there in time just as I started to recover - I nearly didn't go as I felt so ill and felt sure I had a few more days

Needmoresleep, you are right. And as others have said they only have 70 places to offer on a very restricted site.

I would imagine they thought very carefully about this policy and weighed the pros and cons. They will be aware of the negative publicity and threads like this, and of course they would rather not have negative publicity. The fact it generates some, doesn't mean they don't care. They are at pains to point out to parents who are considering applying that people should consider how realistic journeys are, that places are very limited and that they encourage only applications for girls who would come to the school - and go as far as saying, for whom it would be first choice.

Are all the first choice girls top of the ability range? No, but when making their over-offers they only offer to those they are prepared to take - this is not the same as going towards the lower parts of a traditional WL, which may well be necessary after 5 March, when many people have accepted other places, as these were always their first choice, or because they decided that a bird in a hand is worth more than a bird in a bush. They know there will be enough first choice girls in the number of offers they make (but not which ones they are) who really want the place and will get their deposits in on time. These first choice families make sure they read the paperwork and understand that speed if of the essence and don't dilly dally.

Others who aren't quite sure, simply don't have the luxury of time after offers to choose. It's decide now or lose out. It's their choice, and they do have a choice - to thoroughly investigate before offers come out, so they are ready to write the cheque or make the bank transfer to City or somewhere else, or to decide to wait and think and re-visit after offers - but they make that choice in the knowledge that one of their choices may no longer exist. It is up to them.

Most people who have had offers explode weren't sure City was where they absolutely wanted. In reality, many who had exploding offers would have gone elsewhere. If they really wanted it and knew they wanted it, it's hard to understand how they could fail to understand the necessity of speed and miss out. Many of those complaining wouldn't have take City anyway, but don't like the fact that they weren't given 3 weeks to ponder and re-visit. How much should the school pander to them? In the end, they weren't going to be their future students anyway? That bit of bad publicity and moaning is a shame, and not something the school would ideally want, but they see it as a necessary cost that they are willing to bear, for the benefits it brings.

And all this talk about the devastated children who had an offer one day and two days later found they no longer did have. If they were genuinely devastated because it absolutely was their first choice and they had their hearts set on it, then I ask again why on earth hadn't their parents got on the case for this school they definitely wanted, but instead allowed the offer to explode when the danger of this was very clear. For the others, is suspect they weren't devastated at all - some kids have applied to so many schools, they barely know which one is which....for those whose decisions are very much still in the balance (and lots of people seem to suggest on here that they are far from decided and need lots more time and visits) then it's all still very much an open field and they and their parents will visit other places and choose, in all liklihood somewhere different anyway. I don't buy that loads of children are devastated by it. I don't think the parents are devastated either to be honest - not devastated because they depsarealty wanted City as their definite top choice and missed out - yes, perhaps a few who didn't get their acts together, but the majority are not devestataed, but annoyed and cross that a school has chosen to do this - because they feel entitled to time to revisit and make a leisurely decision, because they are paying and because that had become the norm. The school dictating the terms and forcing choices to be sooner really annoys people, even when most of them would not have had City as their first choice anyway. Annoyed, not devastated.

Again, the school just accepts it has to bear this annoyance from mostly parents who wouldn't have taken up the offer anyway. It's a bit of a shame, but when looking at their overall process, the far bigger gain, which comes from this approach is that they have a seemingly full cohort of people who had definitely chosen City, rather than those who they had to draw from a WL, who might be lower ability or for whom it wasn't their top choice. Having top choice candidates counts for a lot - they have chosen in full knowledge of the journey and are committed to the school and to bei g fully involved in things outside of the school day as well as within. Once you have people for whom it is their third or fourth choice, you're often looking at people with difficult journeys, who simply won't be able to stay after school....and in a smallish school, this can make a real difference to the overall broader experience of school.

I think on balance, City will be pleased with their outcomes this year. No doubt some who have accepted might pull out later, but the school hope this will be few. No doubt they are already planning how to handle all of this for next year, when word will be out even more about the tight time scales. In the end, no one needs to apply to City who don't like the school or its application process. It's a free choice. I suspect they still won't be short of applicants at all, or worry too much about the loss of those who aren't strongly committed enough to have been able to make a choice and a decision by offer day.

All schools are more interested in the parents who will say 'yes' to an offer. All schools face the problem of not knowing which parents they offer to will say 'yes'. City has just found a way to find that information out more quickly than many other schools. They feel knowing it sooner creates a stronger school, because the limited site won't be squeezed and current pupil timetables compromised by the uncertainty generated by the current system. They out that ahead of courting potential parents who in all liklihood won't have the school as top choice anyway. It's a thought out choice, which I think makes sense for the school - and I'd want any school I chose to put the school and it's pupils above other potential, but unlikely parents annoyance.

There was also a rather ominous note in one of the many emails from city recently saying that fees are "under review". Of course we realise that all fees are under review all the time but the fact that this was said explicitly made me think a hefty increase is on the way - they are still at a small discount to other comparable schools.

BTW is this school privately owned? I thought it was owned by the City of London Corporation and which acts as a quasi public authority? I am hazy about this I confess.

I wonder whether City have discovered that with regeneration in East London they are now first choice for more. whereas in the past they might have been fallback for bright girls West, South, and North London wanting SPGS, JAGS and NLCS respectively.

I don't think you can determine that accurately at 10+ how bright a girl is. City may have decided that local girls, without long commutes, do better and so are prioritising those that know from the outset that City is their first choice.

Not read whole thread but shocked that a school can make an offer, delighting a 10 year old who will have worked hard and made it through tests and interview, only to find it's disappeared! We went through 11 plus some years ago with dd. City was top of our list before the tests but afterwards, with multiple offers, we took the opportunity to revisit on a normal school day and were put off by the cramped conditions that were more evident when seeing the school at work rather than on show. Two scholarships at other schools also complicated the picture. Dd went elsewhere in the end. With the best will in the world I don't think this decision can be made definitively in advance. So glad we're past all this now.

Our Head said a centralised system was being talked about but with the change to the consortium schools next year he thinks that likely won’t happen now. Or at least will take longer to happen as the consortium schools will want to test their new system for awhile before changing again.

I do have to chuckle at the arguments showing sympathy to the schools and how difficult this process is for them. Come on. They are businesses, shouldn’t feelings of sympathy err towards people and not corporations?

It’s the changing of the game or making it up as they go along that is so frustrating and wrong about CLGS actions of late.

I think you are forgetting that private schools are actually businesses. They are competing for the best pupils.

Pretty much but with different variables. It would surely make everything much easier (so of course will ever happen!)