Kingston Grammar vs Tiffin boys

It may well be true that people who have independent schools as an option, prepare less rigorously for the exams than their counterparts who have the option of a state grammar or a disappointing state Comp. clearly the incentive to prepare is stronger.

I would suggest that the numbers who get into Tiffin who are not bright, but heavily tutored will be few these days. Tutoring can take you so far....but not all the way, when competition is so fierce. Simple, innate ability will take a number all the way,nwithout any tutoring or preparation, but most who get in will be both very clever and also prepared - not necessarily from infants, but perhaps with a good year of focused prep from a parent or tutor.

Those Independnet schools are nowhere near as difficult to get into. It's a numbers game and quite simply when 1800 apply with a 10:1 ratio, you will get better candidates than when the ratio is much lower and many have been excluded because they never could pay anyway.

I think that those who really want their children educated with the extremely clever, pick Tiffin. The local independents are very good and deliver great and often similar results to Tiffin from a wider range of ability.

People who can pay do have more choices. It gives them the choice to prepare to a lesser extent because the completion is much less fierce. It gives them the choice to choose a school which is less competitive to get into and to say that the state grammar was never their first choice anyway, just a practice run, and it gives them the choice to enjoy the perhaps less intense experience and benefits of better funding too.

In the end, lots will have offers from KGS and the other independents who get turned down by Tiffin. There won't be many who are the other way round. This shows it is harder to get into Tiffin. Of course, many don't apply to both.

There are some myths on this thread about Tiffin School. I would like to share some actual facts.

Tiffin puts VR in the English section and NVR in the maths section now.

Not everyone is tutored. Many are. But certainly not from Infants.

Tiffin is well known to be considerably harder to get into than any of the private schools for Miles and Miles (including Hampton and KGS). Tiffin doesn't interview. Offers are based on test scores alone. However, I have heard of kids who got into Tiffin and not KGS. Probably because they test better
than they interview.

There is one downside to Tiffin: that butt ugly blazer. Hopefully, it is character building.

This 'everyone who gets in is massively tutored from Infants ' is a bit of an exaggeration and pushed by those making money out of the tutoring . My daughter went to Tiffin Girls, not tutored apart from some practice papers to get used to the format. From a neighbouring borough state primary that didn't have practice sessions in school, unlike the Kingston schools. Her form had a bit of a 'who got tutored ?' chat amongst themselves in about Yr 8 and it was the girls who were heavily tutored to get in who were doing less well - some even still had tutoring on top of their homework load to keep up.

The classes are not small but it works because they are pretty much at the same level and can go at the same speed. It's not kind to force them up to entrance level if they aren't naturally super able academically and I mean consistently top of the class at primary. It shouldn't just be seen as a free alternative to independent - it's not the same. There aren't the frills but there is academic challenge in the company of others who are of a similar type. My other child was bright but not Tiffin speed and we were quietly relieved when she didn't make the cut - did very well indeed at one of our local comprehensives.

My point is that it was less than six months and cost well under £800. People talk about tutoring for years and years. It really isn't necessary.

Heliophilous but many would argue that is tutoring, albeit not long-term. DS did about the same (with us at home) and passed for all three grammars he sat the 11+ for (this was in the days before joint exams).

Tutoring is not necessarily something you have to do. DD just got an SPGS offer and I don't think it unlikely that she will get into Tiffin Girls too. She had less than 6 months of tutoring (mainly focused on exam technique). We have done no other preparation.

I might argue that families who have the money to fall back on KGS might not subject their DC to the same 11+ prep regime as those intent on getting places at Tiffin for their children. They don't need to because they know they can afford an acceptable alternative!

One of DD's classmates got places at Nonsuch and Tiffin Girls - her mother had been tutoring her since Year 1! And no doubt will continue to do so.

woodlanddreamer many of the children continue to be tutored (seriously) through grammar school.

I work at a Grammar school but not super selective. We can tell within the first couple of weeks who has been tutored to within an inch of their lives. Grammars are great at pushing able students, we are not so good at dealing with lower ability, but we don't boot them out. Every year I have a couple of Y11s with a C grade as their aspirational target. Invariably they leave with a clutch of Ds whereas I know a comprehensive would be so much better for them

Why is tutoring kids bad if it means they can access a great school?

What if they can't keep up when they get there as they only got through the exam with a big push?

Hello Tiffin parent here.
DS got KGS 10+ place from 250 applicants with general interview.
In the Tiffin exam we estimate he was 100 out of 180.
His whole class at Tiffin got into Wilsons/SGS.
I will let you do the maths.

Lots of boys and girls from Wimbledon (and Merton generally) at all of the Sutton ones in my experience.

ok so Sutton borough is really not accessible for most kids at KGS. They are overwhelmingly from Kingston Hill, Surbiton, Wimbledon, Teddington, Richmond, Kew etc...

Tedtess-I agree. Quite a few DC's at out state primary did the Tiffin girls test, mainly for practice for the independent 11+ and did no specific prep at all. Some got through to the second round but of those who did I know none would take the place if the got it. Listening to the chatter in the queue it was quite obvious that a lot of the kids had been tutored for YEARS and this was literally the make or break day. It was quite eye opening actually and completely put me off the school.

there aren't any others ? Only Tiffin...

No that's not true, there are five others in the borough of Sutton, with varying degrees of accessibility depending on where one lives.

the children who went to KGS tended to be the ones who didn't pass the 11+ for the local state

I actually think they cater for quite different markets and offer quite a different education. My experience is that the applicants overlap far less than you may think. Sure some KGS applicants may have "had a go" at the Tiffin test, or done it as an early 11+ practice, but they won't have been intensely prepped for it or as a serious contender.

other SW London super-selectives

there aren't any others ? Only Tiffin...

I would say Tiffin is quite a lot harder to get into than KGS. Or Hampton or any of the other schools. Going on my own - albeit - limited experience (of the DC's former primary school), the children who went to KGS tended to be the ones who didn't pass the 11+ for the local state options (Tiffin/Tiffin Girls/other SW London super-selectives) but had the money to choose private education over a comprehensive one.

Yes. Would agree with that. Harder than all the local selective schools to get into. 1800 applicants for 180 places. They take about 500 to second round. And the tutoring for it is intense. Having said that, many of those also sit the Sutton grammars and some of those offered places might opt for, say, Wilson’s instead. Relative to how it has been in recent years, it seems Tiffin go further down the waiting list now than before. But it is still difficult.

I would say Tiffin is quite a lot harder to get into than KGS. Or Hampton or any of the other schools.
The sheer number of applicants for one.
Secondly you are up against kids who have been preparing for those Tiffin exams since they were in the infant school (no joke).

The exam change must have been a blow to many of these families... but even now to get through the multiple choice test into the top 400 to get to the second stage maths & english is very very difficult.

Honestly I do think Tiffin really is a lot harder to get into than KGS.

From our state primary there seem to be a few each year that get offers from KGS but in the six years my DD has been at the school no one has ever got into Tiffin boys and only one girl into Tiffin girls.

Obviously not all the the children take these exams but quite a few do each year.

We started the extra work in autumn term of year 5. Needed about a year of English/Maths and VR. Did some NVR. As the year progressed, focused more on weaker areas as they became apparent.

All separate exams and interviews. So January was a bit full-on, but over in 2-3 weeks. We sought to minimise stress by keeping it low-key and throwing treats at same time.