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Professional word-processing of A level project?

34 replies

Pebbles574 · 24/01/2018 13:00

Would be interested in people's views on this.

A student has to submit a written report for an A level subject - produced in Word, with lots of sections/ screen grabs, bibliography etc. Probably about 80 -100 pages.

The mark scheme clearly identifies that marks are given for written content and ideas/ report of progression of the project i.e. not explicitly for 'presentation'.

The student, who is not especially competent on Word, wants to send the final document to a third party who will properly format it into a professional looking report for about £20.
All the content would be provided and would remain unchanged - it would just be made to look 'tidier.'

Acceptable or not?

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Pebbles574 · 25/01/2018 10:21

PinkPanther - that's not true in my area of experience. I agree that everyone should be able to knock out a decent word document, but there's a difference between that and a final document that might go out to clients or be published. I've found quite the opposite in fact - that those people who are best at the 'finishing' job tend to stay at that admin level, whereas the others move onto higher level jobs. It makes no sense to have someone who can be billed out to clients at £100-£200 an hour spending time doing the job that someone paid a tenth of that can do better!

Anyway it's obviously a grey area if different universities are advising different things. In my opinion the key issue is whether a service is substantially changing anything or just improving the visual layout and appearance of a body of text which has been provided.
If proofreading is wrong, then surely that would mean that students shouldn't be allowed to use computer spelling and grammar check software for assessed work?
They aren't allowed to in exams when laptops are used, but that's because marks are awarded for spelling and grammar.

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ThePinkPanter · 25/01/2018 08:30

People who have good jobs have teams with resources to do this. But they likely got the good job in the first place by starting at the bottom and proving their worth.

EduCated · 25/01/2018 08:25

Also it is not usual in many places to have teams of admin to format documents for you. I do think knowing how to format a document in a decent manner (not necessarily perfect) is fairly essential these days. What if he ends up in a role where he has to do it himself? Or heaven forbid, ends up as one of those admin...?

EduCated · 25/01/2018 08:23

But you’re not talking proofreading, you’re talking formatting.

I can’t get onto the Manchester link you posted, but take this one from Leicester. The service you posted upthread may well fall foul of the rules about labelling and adding material under point 5.

I am interested in the fact the rules say it would have to be declared, not that it outright prohibits it - if that is the case, why would he not want to do it if he has to declare it?

DumbledoresApprentice · 25/01/2018 08:17

It is explicitly forbidden in the coursework element of my A Level specification. Check the exam board advice carefully.

Julie8008 · 25/01/2018 00:04

I dont see anything wrong with this if it all his own original content. Its no different than asking a teacher or parent to look over it, proof read it, running a spell check on it, or asking someone who knows how to format it to 'look' more professional. It definitely isn't cheating, you could even include their input in the credits/reference list if you have to declare any 'assistance'.

counterpoint · 24/01/2018 22:45

OK, so as I've already said down thread I've established that he couldn't do this unless he declared it, so it's not going to happen.

So, you would have been happy to get it 'improved' if it looked like your DC had done it themselves?

  • That's the same as cheating, isn't it?
Pebbles574 · 24/01/2018 20:48

I think you'll find that most academic institutions actively encourage peer review and proof-reading. If they (Manchester University in this case) believed it was unacceptable, they would be saying so, NOT advising their students how to go about it!

Check out the comments here: academia.stackexchange.com/questions/24346/is-it-considered-cheating-to-ask-a-friend-or-tutor-to-proofread-your-thesis-befo

We're not talking about essay writing/new content here, just tidying up!

Anyway, this has moved away from A levels now, into higher education. CraftyGin - thanks for your suggestion, yes, I might just check her perspective on it.

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titchy · 24/01/2018 20:37

It's NOT exactly the same Hmm

Of course unis offer guidance - but that doesn't mean it's therefore ok for you then pay someone to do the proof reading, correcting errors, correct referencing etc.

But hey if your kid gets caught not my problem.

You posted for advice - take it.

Pebbles574 · 24/01/2018 20:29

By the way, on the subject of Chelsea, you DO realise that the garden designers don't do their own digging and planting don't you? They do the thinking, research, design and then let someone else do the execution.
So it's exactly the same! Grin

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Pebbles574 · 24/01/2018 20:26

There's a MASSIVE difference between essay writing/plagiarism and proof-reading and formatting!!

I'm sorry titchy but this is bollocks:
" you're supposed to proofread your own stuff at uni, getting someone else to do it for you is cheating"

Universities offer guidance on how to go about getting your work proofread! (e.g. see documents.manchester.ac.uk/display.aspx?DocID=29482)

I agree nobody is likely to handwrite a thesis, but mostly people type up something in a basic Word document and list their references etc at the end, but then a proofreader/ formatting person will correctly lay it out, according to the various academic conventions.
You get your degree for the quality of your research and thinking - not your typing skills, but as I said before, a well presented document makes a better impression.

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CraftyGin · 24/01/2018 20:04

As long as it’s not ICT, it should be fine. Best to check with the school exam officer.

EduCated · 24/01/2018 20:01

Things is, you’re not being assessed on your gardening or your DIY.

As you say presentation of reports can make a big difference, which is exactly why I think it would be ridiculous if students could pay someone else to do that for them without needing to declare it, or be marked on a level footing with those who did it themselves.

Typing up dissertations is becoming increasingly uncommon (given that typing work is now standard, it would be very unusual to hand write a dissertation before typing up these days). It’s also becoming increasingly contentious in the universities I’m acquainted with.

Spam88 · 24/01/2018 19:58

You don't then use academic credits gained from work your cleaner/gardener etc does towards achieving qualifications though. It's not comparable.

titchy · 24/01/2018 19:57

Most of those services though find themselves on the wrong side of plagiarism. Look at the title of the site you posted - you're supposed to proof read your own stuff at uni, getting someone else to do it for you is cheating.

When you pay your gardener you're not then pretending to have done the gardening yourself are you and entering yourself at Chelsea?!

Pebbles574 · 24/01/2018 19:51

OK, so as I've already said down thread I've established that he couldn't do this unless he declared it, so it's not going to happen.

However, I'm surprised by how many people are saying 'ridiculous' and 'he needs to learn to do it for uni' etc.
People pay 'experts' to do tasks for them all the time - it's normally a much more efficient way of getting things done. I can decorate, do gardening, do my tax return, alter clothing, clean my house etc perfectly adequately if I have to, but in all cases I usually get someone else (who does these tasks all the time for a living) to do these things for me, and that then frees up time for me to do what I choose to do for my work. It just makes sense.

As a pp said, students have been getting their dissertations professionally typed up for years and there's a HUGE market these days for services such as this one: proofreadmyessay.co.uk/services/formatting

Unless you go on to be an academic, you might only write one, or two, huge dissertations at uni and £30 sounds like a bargain, especially if you are short on time.

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counterpoint · 24/01/2018 19:26

This is ridiculous!

Fortybingowings · 24/01/2018 19:22

Sorry- hit send too quickly.
...margins are correctly set. Better that they learn now.

Fortybingowings · 24/01/2018 19:21

I think it’s the wrong thing to do. At university your child will have to get to grips with doing this sort of thing themselves. For example ensuring that assignments are double-spaced in word, that the margins are

Pebbles574 · 24/01/2018 15:42

OK, so I've looked at JCQ guidelines for assessed work and found this line:

  • candidates must not submit work that has been word processed by a third party without acknowledgement;

So it looks as if it's a no no. Perhaps his teacher didn't understand what he meant.

While I agree it's a useful skill to have, I do think some people are just naturally better at layout/ design etc and can do it much quicker. And people do subconsciously react to the professionalism of a piece of work I.e. The same words in a poorly presented document are less likely to be accepted than in a polished, professional one.

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titchy · 24/01/2018 15:33

Assuming it's the EPQ - your child should do it themselves including the referencing. Which will take forever.bitter experience

In most industries these days having admin bods to make stuff look nice is a luxury so it's a useful skill to learn.

Pebbles574 · 24/01/2018 15:18

Spam - I'm also a professional and can produce my own reports, however the view taken by my company is that given my hourly rate it's more efficient/ profitable for me to spend my time on the actual content, rather than fiddling around with fonts and spacing and general 'tarting up' as it gets called. The team who do that are way better than me at it anyway, so it seems a fair division of labour!

Thanks for the links to exam board regulations - I'll take a look.
It's an internally assessed project, with I think, a selection of the projects then being externally moderated.
He asked his teacher if he could ask someone else to help with formatting and his teacher said it didn't matter if he did as it's only the content that is marked. However he believes that a well presented document creates a better overall impression, and he has nothing to lose by doing it ( so long as it is not against the rules, clearly).

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Spam88 · 24/01/2018 14:49

I think this is completely unacceptable, and would agree that it's not dissimilar to essay-writing services. Paying someone else to do any part of coursework is not okay.

Producing a neatly laid out Word document doesn't require any advanced knowledge of word, there are even templates available. Using outline mode will make things a bit easier (that was a game changer for me in uni!).

FWIW, I'm a professional and I produce my own reports.

KnitFastDieWarm · 24/01/2018 14:40

I'm not sure I agree about the time spent learning extended level Word skills being worth it - in all the (professional level) places I've worked we've always had admin people who would take the 'raw' material and work it up into a 'client-ready' presentation format.

For the love of all that is holy, please don't let your child become yet another 'professional' adult who can't edit and format their own work Hmm

catslife · 24/01/2018 14:26

Students need to sign and hand in a form declaring that the work handed in is all their own work and declare any assistance given. The form for AQA coursework is attached store.aqa.org.uk/admin/crf_pdf/AQA-CDS-18.PDF.
If the work submitted to the teacher is of a significantly different standard to their usual homework would think the teacher would be suspicious.
If it's suspected by the external moderator, there is a significant risk that your ds could be disqualified (zero marks) for receiving unauthorized help.
This may seem harsh but have seen it happen!