Should the DfE be offering £26k bursaries to train as a Classics teacher?

Yes you were being extremely rude MumTryingHerBest and you also, wrongly, thought you were being clever. You're correct that I'm not clicking on the silly links because they're wholly beside the point, which escaped you.

Don't know noble I just made it up blandly while I was at work one day at the DfE :)

Classics is making a comeback, or hoping to, perhaps just not in your school.

I don't need to look at the silly links I wasn't being rude, I stated a fact which you have confirmed.

You're so unnecessarily rude MumTrying HerBest fortunately I have rather better manners so I won't answer as you deserve.

I don't need to look at the silly links because you're missing the point completely.

They can't start re-introducing Classics without teachers to fill the jobs. duh.

MumTryingHerBest the idea is to re-introduce Classics so they are training people for jobs that are yet to be created?

Out of interest what have they used to determine how many new Classics posts will be created in the next few years?

I'm fairly certain that you won't bother doing a quick search on those regional teacher job sites I have linked to. If you had bothered you would have seen there are rather a lot of jobs in Maths, Science, English, MFL etc. Perhaps it would be better for them to invest in those areas first, given that it is fairly evident there are quite a number of jobs to be filled in those areas now, never mind in two or three years time.

Me too, but I guess we are to assume they intend to create vacancies for classicists! It's all a bit odd.

MumTryingHerBest the idea is to re-introduce Classics in more schools than offer it now, obviously.

Clavinova, there does appear to be more schools in London offering Classis than other areas of the country:

www.arlt.co.uk/counties.html

However, in fully selective areas like Bucks & Kent there don't appear to be any vacancies for Classic teachers.

jobs.buckscc.gov.uk/job-search/
www.kent-teach.com/Recruitment/Vacancy/SearchResults.aspx?VacancyType=Teaching&Phase=Secondary

In fact, even in London there only appears to be a small number of Classics jobs currently available. I am a little curious as to where this massive shortage of Classics teachers is, geographically speaking.

Ah I see. It's just that Clavinova linked it to the political agenda comment and so I assumed you'd found some synthesis that I'd missed, with only one politician being part of the current government. It wasn't clear that you were off on a frolic of your own.

Yes, I live in a coastal area. Not much Latin hereabouts sadly, not even at our grammar.

The political agenda comment wasn't mine, in case you think it was...

Eh?
I find the metropolitan bias angle interesting. The huge swathe of underachievement ta the moment is in coastal towns. All these schools offering classics in London sets an agenda that is not relevant- or even helpful- to the rest of the country.

What clavinova posted was just interesting!! I haven't once mentioned a political party!

Perhaps I should have written very interesting, indeed

Piggy how interesting is it exactly in the context of 'money always being found if it suits a political agenda'? As in: how many years since Labour was in power and how many of those politicians are Tory? You say very interesting indeed but can you explain what aspect you find so interesting?

Very interesting indeed.

If Classics suits a political agenda then money for Classics will be found

Interesting - these London based politicians:

Michael Gove, Tony Blair, Emily Thornberry, Jeremy Corbyn, Lord Adonis and even Ed Balls/Yvette Cooper send/sent one or more dc to the following state schools (in no particular order):

Holland Park School, The Grey Coat Hospital, Stoke Newington School, Dame Alice Owen's, The London Oratory, Queen Elizabeth's Barnet - 6 state schools and no prizes for guessing which subject they all offer to at least GCSE. A 7th school also used by one Politician mentioned above only offers Latin as an after-school club.

Sam Freedman, the often quoted director of Teach First says we don't need grammar schools if we follow the model of schools such as Mossbourne (A level Latin), Ark Burlington Danes (GCSE Latin), various Harris Academies (Latin and Classics School Direct Programme) and King Solomon Academy (set up a Latin club last year).

My pleasure.

This is what I guess I was trying to say. It is a bit demeaning to suggest that somehow a classics graduate is superior to an English one , when so many of the skills are essentially the same (with possibly a wider knowledge base and more up to date literary exploration for the English grads : I also have Anglo Saxon and German literature in my degree!)

English graduates can really do anything, and they do : law, journalism, publishing, advertising, writing academia and teaching were the most common ones when I graduated.

I went into teaching because I wanted to : there were no inducements offered then.

The two classicists I trained into went into teaching because they had classics degrees and it seemed a natural progression. They both also said they chose classics , rather than history, because they wanted to teach in private schools, having been to those schools themselves. The university did send them on placements to state grammar schools. One of the students left the course (didn't turn out to be Utopia after all!)

I know classics is great : but I do think your typical* classics graduate might have a rather narrow experience of and view of education : and I really don't think the bursaries are intended to exist to prop up any teaching shortages in the non state sector. or even the grammar school sector as the stated aim to raise achievement for all children.

• note, not true of all.

On the calibre of English graduates - historically teaching was popular, yes, but that doesn't mean it was (or is) one of the few options for an English graduate. The English graduates I knew who went into teaching did it because they loved the subject. Some of them probably liked kids...
I worked in business journalism for years alongside loads of other English graduates. There was the occasional one who couldn't do percentages, I admit, but they had to learn pretty fast or leave! English graduates are sought after. I teach now, and enjoy it, but if I had just graduated the £15k bursary would be too low for me to train in London and I'd be pretty annoyed that the classics graduate got £26k for what would be a less challenging teaching role - Latin is offered to brighter students. Everyone has to do English! Most do two GCSEs in it. (Whether they want to or not!) So, while I totally understand it's not a big amount and I completely agree Classics is a great subject, I fear we won't attract high calibre graduates to teach English if there's an assumption there'll always be loads of them wanting to teach.

yes, my SLT have their foibles - but they are also better than some in that they don't impose facile marking policies on us or treat us like In understand some colleague sin the primary sector are treated. My SLT are by no means the worst.

The last time anyone beyond SLTs really cared publicly about teachers was when the Teacher's Workload Agreement was introduced. That has been undergoing a process of erosion ever since, to the extent that you really are barely allowed to utter the words!

Perhaps I need lessons on how to moan constructively.

'Safety first' is a terrible plan! But perhaps I'm in a minority.

You sound underwhelmed by your own SLT Piggy. Perhaps that's where the problem chiefly lies? It doesn't sound great, on the other hand I suppose the reaction might well depend on how you moan - how frequently, about what, and with what constructive suggestions.