Should the DfE be offering £26k bursaries to train as a Classics teacher?

Well I just looked up the TES job search and there are 30 Classics positions listed (and that doesn't even cover the whole of the UK just within 500 miles). So it does seem to be a position needing more teachers.

Can confirm five jobs (2 academies, 1 grammar, 2 private) I know were on Classics Library in the last year are no longer there, so they are still removing ads.

@noblegiraffe I am probably indeed be out of date, then, and must also have been very fortunate in being able to get state school jobs without issue (one of which was advertised on The Classics Library; nb many ads do get pulled from Classics library after places are filled, hence the relatively low number). I certainly agree there is no overwhelming demand; but perhaps enough demand for the training places advertised. It would be interesting to see where the 49 (if all places were filled) trainees of 2015-16 have ended up.

A few statistics in case they are of interest.

RE: uptake, in 2015-16 the DfE allocated 49 placements for teacher training in Latin/Classics.

In 2008 it was suggested by a survey carried out by the Cambridge Schools Classics Project that 514 state secondary schools (12.9%) offered Latin; then a Sunday Times 2014 survey suggested 1,228 were offering it, so it has seemed to be rising.

(These stats were collated by Steven Hunt, who is big in the state school Classics world, and runs the Cambridge PGCE as well as doing some School Direct)

@Piggywaspushed As far as I know, they're mainly (but not exclusively) in London and the South-East, though not all of them grammar schools. Plenty of academies, academy chains etc; and schools with the support of charities like Classics For All and The Latin Programme.

@noblegiraffe I may be out of date, then. But I do know there are a lot of state schools which do not advertise on TES because of the cost, including some I have taught at myself. They rely on word of mouth, and also more state school Classics teacher jobs are posted on a website called The Classics Library. (And to a lesser extent on the Guardian website, I think.) It may well be the case that the demand is not being advertised properly!

Thanks for that crickets : genuinely interesting.

Are the preponderance of state schools offering classics in pockets of the country or are they spread about?

I do not think the massive disparity between the bursaries offered for different subjects is a good thing, though I know there is reasoning behind it. I think it can often lead aspiring teachers to train in a subject different from the one they most love and would most like to teach, opting instead for subject with a higher bursary. Then they either burn out more quickly, or, having qualified in their shortage subject, move to teach in the non-shortage one they always wanted to teach anyway.

Incidentally, though, there is a shortage of Classics teachers in state schools; the number of Classics teachers required in state schools is growing, and more state than private schools offer Latin in the UK. There are not enough University places to train these teachers which is why, increasingly, state schools are offering School Direct for Classics. I do not think Classics teachers who get the Government bursary to train are any more likely to then disappear off to private schools than trainees from other subjects: the jobs are there in the state sector if they want them. Private schools are still generally flexible about employing Classics teachers without QTS, and there is a popular on-the-job private-school route to a PGCE through Buckingham University.

So, I think most Classics trainees taking the Government Bursary (leaving £17,000 after course fees are paid) are doing so because they want to work in the state sector; otherwise, they could get the same or more money through the Buckingham route, or even forego the PGCE altogether.

Surly LA/academy chains could employ a Classics teacher between their schools.

I forgot to attach shots of the page I saw those bursary figures.

I don't really know what progress measures are, but as you said they were abysmal I thought that might be because there had not been a specialist teacher.

As I said I think all subjects should get a bursary. But I wonder how you feel about physics, languages, computing, chemistry, geography, getting £28,000? biology £26,000? and maths up to £30,000?

These all attract a higher bursary than English, D & T, History, Music and primary maths do?

I don't think you understand the progress measures I was referring to maybe wild .

Classicists are most likely to have history as a second subject. Either way it's been in the past a whole other thread about the desirability of teachers teaching outside of subject specialism.

And as I said, if I was a history or English teacher who had received a smaller bursary to do the very same job and a classicist was teaching my subject as a bit of backfill because there wasn't enough of their own subject for them to teach, which I was arguably better at teaching , I'd be a bit miffed!

I do of course recognise that schools have financial pressures and have to make choices. BIL is teaching Geography but he’s a MFL specialist. However it would be best not to close the door to any subject or indeed teachers that could teach several subjects.

What did I mean by Unselected, Piggy?: sorry that was unclear.

Because you had mentioned
(of course largely because our students are being measured against typical progress and results of classics students nationwide who tend to be at selective schools)

I meant pupils who were at schools where they had not been selected for their ability, being taught Latin regardless of their ability.

( Some non-selective schools might opt to only allow the top streamed set to study Latin. These would be the known able children. But others can do well, find they take to it and start to blossom.)

Classists might very easily have English or maths as a subject - I think Noble mentioned both of those as being in short supply. They might well have a modern language too, and music.

I think classicists are likely to have other subjects there is no shortage in!

I don't understand what you mean by unselected?

The schools opting to take on a Classics trainee presumably do this out of their own choice having weighed up the pros and cons. And presumably they do it thinking this would benefit their school, especially as such trainees are likely to have other subjects they can teach too. It seems doubtful they would do it if it meant not hiring a needed maths or English teacher.

I think it would have helped a lot to have a specialist in the school you mentioned Piggy. Unselected state school pupils can take to this subject and do very well. It is abstract and logical and can be a satisfying subject for this reason, as well as for the usual linguistic ones.

Our head was persuaded by a very inspiring (non specialist ) ex teacher to introduce classics. She did Latin GCSE and A level herself and then wanted to introduce it. The students loved her and results were OK but uptake was only big enough to teach mixed year groups. She left and the subject is now taught by a physics teacher and a German teacher. The physics teacher is very enthusiastic about classics in state schools. But uptake does remain low and last year's results progress measures wise (of course largely because our students are being measured against typical progress and results of classics students nationwide who tend to be at selective schools) were abysmal. Maybe this situation would be resolved by recruiting a specialist - but it won't happen, I am sure.

I fear the subject will be allowed to fizzle out.

I don't think my school is ruthless about stuff like this but if we need the physics teacher to teach all physics, they won't recruit a classics teacher to replace a small amount of teaching.

Bubbles the choice could easily be between Classics being re-introduced and ICT and D&T going, or any number of other subjects come to that - ICT and D&T are just two examples. There's no imperative to retain all the subjects currently on offer and different stakeholders will have differing views.

They can often afford hugely inflated salaries for Execitive heads though. Classics should still be an aim and you shouldn’t refuse to teach Classics because you cannot get Maths teachers!

Surely if there were more Classics teachers in state schools it would enable more children to access the subject. It would bring about wider participation and what is wrong with that? Assuming we believe that Private schools don’t have a monopoly on bright children of course!

I taught German when I started. If it was nowadays, I'd be reluctant to do that, having been paid less to train than an MFL teacher!