Should the DfE be offering £26k bursaries to train as a Classics teacher?

There was someone on staffroom quite recently asking some questions about training who had no intention of stepping foot in a classroom.

Of course, in my day, many eons ago, no one paid fees to train to be a teacher but there were also no bursaries, golden hellos or anything... ( I think there was a very small sum for maths)

Typical tory economics: get rid of the golden hello which was there for these shortage subjects after 1 year of teaching and substantially increase the bursary for training. I got a bursary of 9 grand and a golden hello of 3 grand (fees: 3 grand). Obviously there is greater shortage of teachers in my subject because now I'd get at least 26 grand for training (presumably paying 9000 for fees) and no obgilation to teach.

My sil did a year's maths enhancement course then the maths pgce. Was signed off for stress during the pgce but somehow still managed to pass it. Changed to a yoga instructor and never set foot inside a classroom again after qualifying. Not a bad couple of years finianicially for her but a total waste of money for the government.

In other countries, including the one in which I now teach, the working conditions and pay are so much better that career changers will gladly pay for 2 years of training out of their own pockets. There are no shortages of teachers. I have no qualms about training in the uk and then moving abroad (after 3 years teaching in the uk).

Also a school in which I trained offered classics. Still had dreadful behaviour including a 14-year-old throwing a chair a pregnant teacher. Not really an indication of a good school.

I suppose what Noble is asking is why is there even a target for classics when it is (within the state sector) a minor option subject at GCSE and beyond...

Easier just to axe a subject and deploy those staff elsewhere

if you're talking numbers the classics bursary being higher than primary maths is bonkers

It seems a very sensible enticement to me - the £6,000 primary maths bursary is being offered to applicants with at least a B grade maths A level, not necessarily a maths degree. If teachers cannot access the primary maths curriculum with maths A level, what hope has a 10 year old?

Why would the government offer £26,000 bursaries for primary maths when there is a shortage of secondary maths teachers? Wouldn't that just increase the shortfall in secondary maths applicants if primary maths has a similar bursary?

The primary teacher training target was met last year (overshot by 700 trainees) - the target for classics was only 78% met.

Well, Noble is right - if you're talking numbers the classics bursary being higher than primary maths is bonkers. There are few university classics departments - many shut in the late 80s. Offering teaching bursaries isn't going to change that. Latin is an ebac subject but UCL won't accept the GCSE as part of its preference for a foreign language. (Same for Ancient Greek and ancient Hebrew). I'm sure my local head would like to offer Latin but he has no extra money to pay a teacher.
It is seen as elitist because access to it is limited - where comprehensives teach it, they offer it to their top students.
Mind you, the content of Latin literature is generally pretty unsavoury!

Yes, I do see your point indeed. We do offer it at my school. It is reasonably popular amongst a certain kind of student, not all actually able.

Unfortunately, results have sucked a bit... largely I believe because our students are being measured against huge numbers of students from ultra selective schools....and the examiners tend to teach in those establishments too.

the state (us) have to pay for in return for you educating our children

Pardon?

Hi noble I have skipped a lot of pages and do see your point mainly BUT just thought you should know:

my best friend is an ardent socialist and teaches classics.

His son is chair of the Regional Young Communist Party and has Latin A level!!

BubblesBuddy are you a teacher?

It's not a case of whether Latin and Greek are important subjects and to be encouraged. It is a case of what is the best use of the bursary money, when funds are limited. Where is the greatest area of need?

Maths teachers and linguists are massive shortages. Achieving decent teaching so you can get a pass grade in Maths is certainly more important than having access to Latin for most children. Of course it is good for schools to offer Latin and there is a shortage of Latin teachers and it is right to try to recruit more, but in the overall scheme, I think it's right to put more effort and funds into the core subjects.

That said, even with the bursaries, even might be talking about 20 Latin teachers training, and so actually the total expenditure on these bursaries is relatively low. If thousands were receiving the £26k then it would be a far worse use of resources. And it is true that whilst one need (such as Maths) might be more serious than another (Latin) it doesn't mean that every single resource should be given to to bigger need and zero to the other. I suspect that the total funding given to Maths bursaries is far far in excess of that given to Latin - it's a key fact.

BubblesBuddy your post is a little vague. Could you be more specific.

I think trying to argue that teachers are getting a great deal because they get a pension is a little odd, tbh.

I got private health care, shares, expensed lunches & evening meals/socials, travel allowance, use of a well stocked kitchen for tea/coffee/fruit and snacks, fully expensed mobile, paid accommodation abroad & use of a hire car (great for having OH fly out and join me for a weekend away) etc. I'm curious what the great package is that teachers are getting that enables huge numbers of them to retire early.

It's ok, soon there won't be so many teachers left so you won't have so many pensions to pay for. If teaching is so cushy, why are so many teachers quitting and breathing a sigh of relief once they have a private sector job? There have been quite a few on MN alone, and some who quit the private sector to become teachers and then headed straight back again when they found out what it was like!

Teachers have employers who pay into their pension fund. They do not have to pay every penny themselves. This is a great deal. So are he final pensions and lump sums. The general taxpayer also funds the pensions. If anyone thinks they are shitty they are utterly ridiculous! They are not. Work out what you will get and how big your private pension pot would need to be to get that amount every year. Annuities are about 3% p/a return. Teachers are still very well looked after regarding pension arrangements. No-one has stolen the teachers pension fund have they? It’s just one more thing the state (us) have to pay for in return for you educating our children.

It staggers me that knowledge of the outside working world is so poor!

It is not correct that all schools are suffering and that education is disintegrating in this country. I come accross lots of teachers who are enthusiastic, ambitious and have every intention of staying in teaching. I do believe it is poorly managed schools where there are problems.

You can't make this true just by claiming to have met some enthusiastic teachers, I'm afraid. The profession is losing thousands of teachers in general, not just from the most poorly-managed schools.

Of course lots of teachers are planning to stay in teaching. They have mortgages and bills to pay and families to feed. But many of those who feel able to leave are leaving. Not because they aren't enthusiastic, talented teachers, but because the system sucks and therefore the job sucks. I'd rather cut my own arm off do a pretty menial job for a low wage than go back to full-time teaching in a state school atm. And teaching was all I ever wanted to do, since I decided age 12.

You work in a deprived area I am guessing, but underlying your posts is always the feeling that you think the pupils who come into your orbit will never amount to much, and your expectations of what they are capable of achieving are pretty low.

Hah, you are in fact not as clever or as insightful as you think you are, because you are wrong on all counts.

Oh good, I’m glad that’s the case. In that case I can go back to ignoring your interminable negative posts.

I think the point is not that Classics isn't a great and helpful subject- I have no doubt I would enjoy it and find it very interesting- but that most "lower achieving" comprehensives don't offer and cannot afford to offer Classics when they can barely afford to offer Maths.

BubblesBuddy perhaps you can enlighten me on this generous benefits package that teachers are on?

Pensions for public sector workers are now pretty shitty. There were some big changes a couple of years ago. Women are particularly disadvantaged if they take maternity leave. Don't believe the hype.

There are very many people who have stressful jobs. Teachers shout about it all the time yet the rewards can be very good. Teaching jobs do not have a monopoly on stress or long hours. Ditto NHS staff. These still are jobs for life with great pensions. Even with the changes they are great pensions. Lots of teachers and NHS staff can, and do, retire early. All of this makes the jobs a better bet than many self employed people who have big bank loans to keep going and staff to pay. I find very few in the employment of the state ever give a thought to the advantages they have regarding the overall package. Generous sick pay too.

It is not correct that all schools are suffering and that education is disintegrating in this country. I come accross lots of teachers who are enthusiastic, ambitious and have every intention of staying in teaching. I do believe it is poorly managed schools where there are problems.

There are, of course, deprived children everywhere and SLT and teachers should use the pp money, which is fairly generous, and not previously available, to try and overcome some of the problems. Also deprived does not necessarily mean low achieving. This is the lazy assumption that makes me cross. One of the best things about teaching should be opening the eyes of pupils to the possibilities out there, no matter who they are. No just wringing hands and leaving the job to others. That is negative and it really needs to be addressed.

I have no doubt she has a certain amount of stress but of course some deal with it better than others.

Well if, as has been suggested on this thread, experienced teacher are leaving just because they are work shy and don't know how easy they have it now, I'm sure we can all look forward to them returning back to the profession fairly soon.