11+ Results - Why Don't Independent Schools Release Scores?

I think the main reason they don't give the results, is because it would generate huge aggro and criticism of their choices about who to take - and they want to remain independent and free to take whoever they please, without having to justify it to anyone.

If results were published, parents would complain if a lower scoring child got a place, but their didn't. It would also open the door to parents demanding to see the scripts and asking for re-marks and challenging the marking and offers. It would take up loads of time and energy for the school and challenge the flexibility they have to not just take exam results into account when deciding who to offer to. State Grammars have to purely allocate on exam performance - either purely by score for super selectives, or by a minimum score and geography too, or by a minimum score plus music or other aptitude. They cannot decide not to have someone because they didn't think their behaviour looked good at interview, or because their primary school reference revealed things the secondary wished to avoid. Independents want the greater info they can gather and to take it into account, but if results are released to parents, it muddies the water, becaue parents would only see the results aspect of the process and not the other aspects which they couldn't be party to, but fail to fully grasp that results alone were not the determinant of an offer.

Most schools say in their terms and conditions for applicants that results will not be released and scripts not made available. It is very clear.

Another good reason not to release results is that all pupils start the school on an equal footing - there is no sense for anyone of being the lowest scorer or the highest scorer, with the problems that would bring. It's why many state grammars only release actual scores to those who failed to get an offer, not to those who did.

Finally, independent secondaries often DO release results to Prep schools on the strict u distancing these aren't given to parents. This is to foster good relations with the the Preps and is a two way street. The secondaries want accurate references from the Preps and for the Preps to have a realistic understanding of the standard required so they can advise parents accurately about whether to apply or not - Preps want success, not failure. Seeing the results allows the Preps to recognise the standard required in different aspects, based on the results and their knowledge of the kids' ability. They can then more accurately advise parents toward the right level of school for their child, and also ensure they get a closer to 100% success rate. Sometimes Prep schools will also intervene over rejections and make a case for a borderline case - and secondary heads might well listen, as lomg as Prep Heads don't do it too much. The thing is, a Prep Head can do these things and use the data in a way a parent can't. A parent will always only be thinking of their individual child, but a Prep Head sees that child as part of a bigger picture of both the he lresent and future of many children, so that's why the information is given to them. There is recognsition of the Preps and Secondaries working together for each other's mutual benefit.

I think it's right that the results aren't released to parents.

nostraightedges - yes, I probably should have been more specific that the state 11+ system differs by county.

Lentils, some kids will always be tutored, especially in London. One (very nice ) Russian mum once moaned to me about how the school did not tell you class positions in exams, but simply gave an achievement grade (effectively: excellent, good, satisfactory, and needs improvement). We drilled down a little and realised that class position matters in Russia. She wanted to know the subjects in which her son was not coming top of the year, so she could focus efforts there. (He was already doing a lot!) Unfortunately US Universities ask schools to say where applicants sit in the year group, and so there can be mammoth pressure for kids wanting the US to excel all the way through. And a bit of a false perception by other DC that they are not particularly bright. DS was astonished to come top in a couple of maths papers at University. He had never been within striking distance of a top set at school.

And obviously those that were tutored to get into a school may need tutoring to keep up. Some boys had a major slump in the first term exams at DS' very academic school. They were back on track by the summer. My guess is that the tutors were back.

lol at 'quality of students at the school', is OP's DD not of the same quality then?

Normally you can ask for, and get, financial help mid way through if you fall on hard times. Not if you have a £ millions property though. They just do not advertise this fact!

IME, with the exception of London where demand outstrips supply, the main entrance criterion is whether the school thinks the parents can and will pay for the full seven years.

Our prep advised parents where to apply. Very many do that and it is part of the service. If you wanted Wycombe Abbey, but were not good enough, that was up to you, but the school would not have been bouncing with joy and would have steered the parent elsewhere if possible. Prep Schools like to tell parents that pupils got their first preference school. This is the measure of their success, not marks in exams. CE/11 plus entrants into the right schools (and getting scholarships!).

Of course private school children are not all clever. Prep schools are not all selective. Some positively attract the children who are less bright and need much more help. Parents believe they will not thrive at a state school and private schools are more nurturing. They may not be better at teaching though.

My DD2 went to a non selective prep but many girls went on to CLC and Wycombe Abbey. The parents who wanted this route for their girls selected that school. State school children can access those schools too, but the path is not mapped out for you. However, many state school parents are not going to jump through those hoops and take the local school because that is what they want for their children.

Grades A, B or C for schools like Wycombe Abbey/Downe House re: CE at 11. Means they don’t get tied down to exam specifics & can offer on more of a broad impression. Allows flexibility. They look at quite a lot re: suitability.

But to be honest was surprised at the "quality" of students at the school. They don't seem that massively brighter than the top set of her state primary.

One of twins goes to a superselective and scored highly in 11 plus (we know the scores here) his equal ability twin (and both of them were top set primary) did not perform as well and sits in the top sets at comp. On another day he could be at that same grammar. Point is, selection at this age - the sitting of a test - does not soley determine ability or potential. I've seen many go to selective schools on good tutoring alone.

There will always be children at comps who are as bright as those at grammars/independents. Thank God, because we cannot assume that selective schools have the best of the best. Not all children will opt to sit entrance exams either.

Absolutely agree with hogfather here. Most selective independent schools, away from the madness of London, the 'superselectives' and the high end public schools look for general ability but more importantly the potential to do well, especially if child has come from a state school background. My son had the chance to do a year 5 pre test at an HMC school and they gave fantastic feedback on how he did- not pure number marks but whether expected level was achieved, exceeded or not quite met. So useful in preparation for the 11+. And I didn't care a jot about his exact results per paper for the 11+ when the letter came through saying he'd passed! Agree with others that it would just lead to too much competitive grief between parents.

nostraightedges exactly the same here

Can you imagine the outcry! Pfb scored 2 marks more than friend in maths but friend got offered a place and he didn't! At least this way there is more than tutoring used to differentiate candidates.

In addition to everything already said, I think you'd also get false representation, especially at an independent that is genuinely looking for ability and the right fit over pure achievement. If people start posting on the Internet about how anon. private is so superselective that dear Tarquinius didn't get in with a score of 95%, it's going to put a lot of people off applying. Because that same parent won't post or necessarily know that Tarquinius didn't get in because he's an obnoxious brat, and the school quickly picked up on the fact he's average ability wise but has been coached & hothoused to perform well in the exam since reception age.

Likewise if Jane's parents post about how she got a place with 60%, the school will have loads of pointless applications from similar candidates. Even though Jane is far higher ability than her results suggest, but she had exceptional circumstances to explain the discrepancy and absolutely shone at interview. The parents aren't going to say they are both uneducated and a bit clueless and Jane attended an awful, failing primary and sat the exam on the recommendation of a third party, or that Jane only learnt English two years ago, or has spent years in hospital etc.

Plus it would be unofficial ranking. Everyone locally knows that dc who are offered places at A are also offered places at B. But not always vice versa, B just isn't as selective. And the exam results reflect this, but it's still a well respected academically selective school. If it became common knowledge it took dc with eg 20% lower scores, its reputation would plummet.

Regarding whether a prep school will be very much help with preparing for entrance tests, I'd say that was very area specific.

Here we have some traditional Preps - ie through to Yr 8 and one school that calls itself a Prep School but only goes to Yr 6. This school is a feeder to one of the 2 former grant maintained Grammar schools in the city. The feeder school to the other one styles itself a Junior school.

Those at traditional Prep schools do go on to the former grant maintained school but are encouraged to take Yr 9 entry.

As far as I know the traditional Prep schools don't prepare or help students with working towards the entrance exams either in the 11+ schools or the 13+ schools.

At 11+, many kids come in from Primary school.

Regarding knowing results, as others have said the sibling priority plays a part as does the reference and interview. 11+ schools here that used to be grammar are quite interested in prospective SATs results. The 2 boarding schools that take some kids from 11 but most from 13 up are not interested in SATs results.

nickyplustwo that's not how our state grammars do it. The primary school have nothing to do with it at all-they don't even know which child has sat the exam.

We got a letter with our sons score and the minimum score for applying and each schools lowest offer score on offers day the previous year.

Some schools will give feedback to unsuccessful candidates.

Have you actually asked?

Also, as some schools interview all candidates, then not receiving an offer does not necessarily mean flunked interview. But even for those who do interview only some of their candidates, not receiving an offer could mean all sorts of things, especially for a coed (not just it being out down to personality in any single sense).

In the state 11+ system, the primary school informs the parent of the child's scores in maths, comprehension, VR and NVR. You know the overall pass threshold and the individual components threshold as they're published. It's interesting for about 5 minutes. No-one talks to each other about the scores because it's a bit sensitive either way. It is only useful if you are very close and want to appeal or if you need a certain pass mark to go to a super-selective grammar. These are no-quibble hard measures; I can imagine if there were 'softer' criteria like interviews and school recommendations, publishing 'scores' might be contentious.

When dd did the scholarship exam for her Indie we got a detailed breakdown of her performance in each part of the test, where she ranked and feedback on her interview

I think some do but only when they know they are probably going to offer your child because their score is pretty good - at one (interview with me) I was told my DD's marks (in the percentage range) My friend was told her son's actual percentage scores in all four of his papers but he was offered a scholarship..I think there's some sense in it as what if once the children were in the school they all told each other their scores and it all became a bit competitive with some kids not feeling 'as good' as others. And I do get the bit about not telling scores if your child hasn't got in - that opens a whole can of worms and doesn't tell the whole story anyway.

"Private schools can't be sued because they haven't let someone in (I think!)."

Admissions would be governed by the Equalities Act 2010 surely. Schools will need criteria. Otherwise it could be construed as discrimination. What good would it do for a child to be told that they had aced exams, and then still did not get a place. The implication is that there is something wrong with their personality. Which would upset an average 10 year old. And the playground/pick up rivalry in Yr 6 is more than enough, without a kid going into interview knowing they had borderline marks when the bright kid in the class has boasted that they were well into the 90's on each paper so certain to get a place.

Why would you want them, other than for bragging rights?