Secondary school without Rugby

The 'rugby families' in our area seem to live their lives centred around the rugby club and its associated activities, so

• kids all start RugbyTots etc from a young age at the club, the progress through U7s to first team over the next decade
• tend only to mix with other families whose children play rugby as most of their weekends are spent down the club coaching/ playing matches
• the clubhouse is the epicentre of their world - the RugbyMums do Pilates and Yoga there on weekday mornings (or have lovely 1-to-1 personal fitness sessions with the charming and muscular gym coach, who is usually called Rich or Josh)
• Dads and lads spend Fri/Sat night in the bar
• Sunday morning EVERYONE is down there for training - spectators in wellies, toddlers and dogs in the adjacent field and there's lots of rah- rahing about money, houses, cars and schools.

We did it for about 3-4 years but then couldn't stand it any longer. DH took the DSs on the annual rugby trip and came back shocked having witnessed the most appalling alcohol abuse on the trip - Dads unconconscious, incapable of taking care of their kids (some as young as 7or8) and just generally vile and disgusting behaviour in the hotel towards staff and other guests.

Yes, of course everyone will now pile in and say how their club isn't like this, but a shocking number of them are, especially in the South East.

*parent

I would have to agree. Also all the 'rugby families' we know are also the ones with alcohol abuse problems e.g. 14 year old girl unconscious on vodka because she's seen her older brother and dad do it.

I know of no 'rugby families' with alcohol problems.

I know of football patents that have been banned from the touchline, another that been banned from our local professional teams ground and an alcoholic that is part of a 'hockey family'

Oh and DSD friend mother's sister likes a drink and apparently a huge netball fan.

Seriously, can you hear yourselves?

What’s a 'rugby family'? Do you mean a family where they might play rugby? It seems odd to define a family by the preferred sport of a few individuals?

Is your family a 'mumsnet family'? Does that mean your whole family is middle class, judge andwears Boden? Or is that just another poor stereotype?

My personal observation is that pretty much all older teen and adult men for whom playing rugby is a part of their identity have a nasty superiority complex not to be found in anything like such a universal way in players of any other sport.

I would have to agree. Also all the 'rugby families' we know are also the ones with alcohol abuse problems e.g. 14 year old girl unconscious on vodka because she's seen her older brother and dad do it...

My personal observation is that pretty much all older teen and adult men for whom playing rugby is a part of their identity have a nasty superiority complex not to be found in anything like such a universal way in players of any other sport.

Well as someone who myself who was very involved in sport and a DH who is extremely involved professionally in numerous sports I completely disagree.

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder tbh.

All the usual shit stereo types coming out about Union. I played for 35 years. Rugby players are just like any other section of society. I went to a comprehensive in the arse end of Croydon.

Yep.

Good handful of international and professional players from our area. Only 2 went to public school, the rest were/are from run of the mill state comprehensives.

Pretty sure nobody's said that pretty

My personal observation is that pretty much all older teen and adult men for whom playing rugby is a part of their identity have a nasty superiority complex not to be found in anything like such a universal way in players of any other sport. Women's rugby is probably different, as are most women's sports.

Certainly parents of boy rugby players constantly try to set themselves apart and claim that playing this sport makes their sons superior, for some half baked but constantly repeated reason to do with expected behaviour on the pitch. Constantly being told throughout childhood and adolescence that you're a superior being due to a sport you play must contribute significantly to the arrogant, entitled attitude of young adult male rugby players.

All the usual shit stereo types coming out about Union. I played for 35 years. Rugby players are just like any other section of society. I went to a comprehensive in the arse end of Croydon.

If there is an elitist attitude at some institutions then that’s not the fault of the sport but of the institution. I’m sure the very many players from the welsh valleys don’t see themselves as elitist!

If you want to avoid risk, avoid cycling too. My mum fell off her bike, hit her head on a rock and despite wearing a helmet, sustained a head injury which then went on to cause a specific type of early onset dementia, from which she died 5 years later only positive is that her well documented brain may be have helped with some of the concussion research

The SRU protocol is that all Junior rugby players (ie all those under U18) have to have 3 weeks (at least) off if they've had a concussion. Anyone even suspected of concussion has to come off for a Head Injury Assessment. Ds (now 17, been playing since he was 5) knows to take it seriously (we have never stopped him cycling or playing rugby - in fact, have encouraged him to be active).

No contact for all U9s and thereafter there are Age Grade Law Variations (as has already been mentioned: no ripping or hand-offs until cU13 different school years in Scotland, so in practice it means S1, 1st year at secondary ; smaller teams and smaller scrums, gradually building up to the "full" laws in senior rugby).

OP - be careful about schools who currently offer rugby as a choice and it isn't compulsory because that can change. It has happened at DS1's school when only about 25 opted for rugby in Autumn term Y11 which isn't even enough for two teams so the football option was withdrawn, although it was obviously available for the Spring term as that is the official football term.
Rugby does seem to have become less popular in his school probably because there have been so many bad injuries including one boy who after concussion lost a whole terms work and knowledge in his GCSE year and had to re-learn everything. If a school offers rugby as an option you can't stop your DS from choosing to play.

So what we’ve decided is that if you’ve been to an independent school and play rugby you’re an entitled mysogynistic arrogant rahrah overprivildged Neanderthal who you cross the street and you are likely to suffer a significant head injury whilst playing.
On the other hand if you’re state educated and playing rugby you’re a jolly decent chap and not likely to suffer a head injury.
Unelivable talk about rampant inverted snobbery unfounded stereotyping and prejudice at its worse.
Come on everyone can’t we do better than this.

You should then avoid football & cricket too. No question. And what if they're on a horse & fall off. Or skiing?

The rugby team at my university were exactly as needmore describes and worse. They were the most entitled, misogynistic, arrogant, unpleasant pack of thieving, cat calling neanderthals you've ever crossed the street to avoid. They trained by running up and down our staircase and stole food from our kitchen because we were on the top floor. Tossers. The university football teams were far less "in your face" and far less pack like, without the arrogance.

Well your experience is very very different to mine then.

Plus rugby isn't just played at universities.

Mr DSS has been picked on at school for watching and playing rugby rather than football. Some really quite nasty homophobic insults.

Every sport has idiots.

I'm always incredulous when rugby parents claim that rugby creates respectful young men. This "respect" must stay on the pitch, it certainly doesn't show itself elsewhere. The rugby team at my university were exactly as needmore describes and worse. They were the most entitled, misogynistic, arrogant, unpleasant pack of thieving, cat calling neanderthals you've ever crossed the street to avoid. They trained by running up and down our staircase and stole food from our kitchen because we were on the top floor. Tossers. The university football teams were far less "in your face" and far less pack like, without the arrogance.

I don't like the culture either. They may be polite to the ref on the pitch but so many can be absolute arseholes off the pitch.

So can hockey players, so can footballers, so can athletes.....

No sport is injury or idiot free.

Some of the worst injuries my DH has seen is from hockey.

Not really a "Peckham Girl" or a girl with any interest in in football but I am ex Peckham resident of 13 years when Peckham was really at at its lowest, people laughed when removed there, I used to regularly see the police horses from Dulwich police station go to the Millwall home matches. I'm a nomad I don't really come from anywhere although my heart and soul lies in the ups and down of west Devon and north Dartmoor.
I've no idea how the equivalents at my DC's universities behave at rugby football or tiddlywinks but I suspect that many sports (maybe not tiddlywinks) have their problems.

"its so easy to make generalisations and find news to back up our arguments"

I was quite clear that I was reporting a conversation between my DC about their respective Universities, and simply pulled out press reports as evidence to back up an observation. DC are at two quite different Universities, but rugby club behaviour is seen as an outlier at both. I accept that the equivalents at your DCs Universities may behave like choirboys, but this is clearly not the case elsewhere.

I honestly did not have you down as a Peckham girl. And am surprised you are still facing problems, other than languishing towards the bottom of the Championship. DH and I have probably been to at least 30 football matches in the past couple of years (including the Den twice in the last three years - though did not spot anyone wearing a MN scarf) and really not seen any problems anywhere. (Again, as to be clear, observational so not a generalisation.) DH has also been to the Magic Weekend each of the last couple of years, and again no problems.

The RFU allow tackling from u9,but not handoffs or ripping,so hard to imagine where the brutality and violence comes from..

I am really surpirsed that your kids are playing contact rugby.

Ds school (state grammar) only does touch rugby until year 9, and then there is an option for either, basically the team plays contact.

I was under the impression that it was considered very bad practice for primary aged kids to play contact rugby.

I think I would be challenging the school in that to be honest.

Heres a generalisation-Ben Stokes-he went to a comp and his dad played rugby league...hes turned out really well hasn't he!!
Take the sack of potatoes off your shoulder...User..

"I fear the culture needmore speaks of is the rahrah end of rugby, especially privately educated boys/men with lots of money and a life time of privilege and been told you're are better than the rest."
"So think culture often comes from the players and their backgrounds, not the sport, especially where you have lots of money and privilege thrown together,"
User and Needmore its so easy to make generalisations and find news to back up our arguments but neither of you do yourself any favours by doing this. I can do the same; for years I lived up the road from Milwall and it doesn't the much searching the internet to find this and I could have given you loads more links and thats only one football club. I could from that extrapolate that many poor white working class football fans are football hooligans although my actual experience the area and those who support the club the tell me that this is not the case! As a horse rider and shock horror a supporter of the hunt I frequently have to listen to gross generalisations about those who participate in my my hobby, their perceived wealth, class etc. In real life I am just like everyone else.
Anyway user my actual experience over the years of privately educated boys playing RU and I have met loads of independently educated "what you might call "rahrah over privileged" boys with "lots of money" who play rugby union, is that one of the nicest boys I've ever met played for England, others played at country level, some for their school, of course there was the odd arrogant badly behaved one (as there is at Millwall) but the vast majority were kids like your DS, who just enjoyed the game and believed in playing it fairly behaving approrpiately and respecting other players.

An audit of our injuries at the end of a very busy season on the independent schools circuit a few years ago showed that we had few head injuries, fractures and dislocations were much more common. I agree hockey is not necessarily a viable alternative, neither is squash and similar it's surprising how many run into walls and hit their heads. Head injuries in rowing are obvioulsy not common but it doesn't suit all.

needsmore we are. But I think it bloody depressing that on a national parenting forum, westwood2017 is advised to avoid rugby because A) its dangerous, no more so than any other sport numerous footballs can't walk due to injuries, B) there's a culture of "rich and privileged" tossers going around ruining all rugby image. when there as many drunken idiots at football, hockey, cricket and horse racing.
Ds1 has been to 3 open age events, Christmas, end of season and 2nd Christmas do's all have had alcohol and he's been on his own. joys of shift working parents. all adults where warn about their behaviour and told they would be released if they let themselves or the club down.

Yes Ds1 drinks. he will tell you bitter is disgusting, lager is worse, cider with fruit is his drink. Whiskey, rum and brandy awful and Gin is okay I suppose. Vodka not bad but strong. He has never been leg less, unlike mum and dad, and totally knows his limits, unlike similar age mum and dad. All learn in the confines of a safe and caring environment full of friends and responsible adults. Not in a seedy bar or club or with new people you have just met a university.
So I think the way to change any culture is from within, not to leave it to some knuckle dragging hair trolls.
we have never paid more than £95/season to play rugby, all 3 clubs have fully trained coaches, level1 to 4, all have had physios available to the players, when injured and they make call on when player returns, not player or coach. Ds1 played non stop rugby for 22 months and each season when he's been injured he has been phased back in to team, on advice of the physio, He is one of main players. His Yorkshire, requires improvement, comp was exactly the same.
If our under funded school and local clubs, which rely on player subs mainly, and help Ds1 to be National Schoolboys Champion and try and defend their title, 1st school ever, and win under17's Yorkshire ru league and losing finalist in cup, your not telling my world famous independent schools famed for their sport can't do sodding better
For Christ sake 80% of England's RU team went to Independent schools. I could get if weatwood2017 was avoiding state schools rugby but she isn't

User, we are on the same page. Rugby Clubs at DC's universities LSE and Bristol have had problems, and the friend suggested that the rugby players at his college, especially when seen through the eyes of an overseas student, enjoyed a similar reputation.

OP is looking for private schools. Another reason, perhaps, to avoid those that promote rugby. Football at University appears to be more diverse and accessible, though DS swerved the University set up and played in an informal 7 a side league, because he was not attracted by the drinking culture that seemed to pervade the AU.

All sports can be dangerous, we know of a friends son who walks with crutches, because he was tackled badly at football, or MIL's friend who is in a wheelchair after falling of her horse. Our school lost a pupil on a skiing holiday when a loose ski hit the girls head. This a rough Yorkshire comprehensive, no more skiing holidays. Sadly people drown swimming.
The culture of rugby, I think I better put on flame proof clothing, my boys have played RL and eldest now RU, all very working class clubs, the RU club started as old boys from the town's secondary modern school.
We have no issues with bad behaviour, in fact all players and parents have to sign conduct forms at start of each season. Both boys played with girls up to 11. They have been and are regularly refereed by girls/women and are even more respectful to them, than the male referees. Most games are watched by mums, girlfriends and wife's.
Ds1 has been on numerous tours and stays with his rugby, alone from age of 10, we have never felt he was in any danger, at 12 they went on a midnight raid to wake up 14 year old girl guides, got scare of their life's when girls attack with water bombs. The guides complained, well leaders, all ten players, including Ds wrote letters apologizing. The following year girl guides came back on same weekend and both groups spent 4 days messing around together, Ds still in touch with a couple of them on facebook.
I fear the culture needmore speaks of is the rahrah end of rugby, especially privately educated boys/men with lots of money and a life time of privilege and been told you're are better than the rest. Cricket tour of Australia has had similar issues, Oxford/ Bristol universities and their private school clubs seem to hit the headlines ever year.
Ds1 looking to go to university this September, so his 3 chooses 1st- about 8% private has 3 rugby teams, shown around by people he knows from local clubs and girls team captain. 2nd choice- 5% private has both RL and RU, not RL heartland, shown around by girls team captain, who told students/parents that they are diverse team, no drinking culture and you will likely to be removed from your course if you act stupid. 3rd choice- new and less than 2% private, no rugby, either join local teams or start one yourself.
So think culture often comes from the players and their backgrounds, not the sport, especially where you have lots of money and privilege thrown together, which I suspect is the case for most on this thread and the universities your friend and your student DC's go to needmore
I know not all private school children are like this but sadly you do often meet them on rugby pitches, with their private school walk, ie my b*lls are bigger than ours.