Worried we made the wrong choice about grammar school

“I think they get less homework at grammar schools because they are expected to be self-motivated learners and do more on their own initiative!”

Not sure why anyone would expect that: self-motivation isn’t measured in the 11+ format.

And you do realise that in non 11+ areas, the high achieving kids are actually within the comps?

And middle and low attainers can also be very self motivated.

In the end many teen boys have a bad case of airheadedness. I have one who is a high achiever (at a comp) who would lose his ears, nose and arms if they weren’t attached.

mountford it is completely non selective. Relatively affluent but entirely non selective. So not impossible

I think there is a tendency to only look at results and not the total wellbeing of the child.

Teachers having to constantly spoon feed is an obvious problem being stored up for university and beyond. So is spending hours on homework in Y7. Spending that amount of time suggests a degree of struggling.

As for 240 being huge - it’s not that bad! A very successful comp near me has 2100 children. 300 intake. It is so well organised children thrive and are successful. Size does not matter much at secondary. You need to see excellent teaching, high standards, lots of activities and opportunities, a good pool of friends and good results. Lots of London schools are capable of this.

If the teachers are intervening more, how will it work when the kids go to university?

Indeed, it does worry me! I think that the kids are getting mixed messages at the moment. When some teachers are micro-managing them and others are leaving them to it, it's hard for the kids to know what to do. I think it's better when it's one or the other as they know where they stand. As for Uni, I think most will realise it's a massive step-change and rise to it. But then again, I keep reading articles about Uni students expecting allowances to have more time for assignments they've not done on time, etc! Personally, I think each individual school should have their own policies about how much they spoon feed - at my son's school, even different teachers in the same departments have different attitudes, so if the department head can't impose a framework in their own dept, I don't know how whole school can be consistent.

karriecreamer
So, there may well be an "expectation" from the older teachers that the kids use their initiative, but I think society is changing and the modern reality, as seen from the more recently appointed teachers, is that there is less initiative being shown generally, so more intervention is needed.

If the teachers are intervening more, how will it work when the kids go to university? (which isn’t so far away if Y11). I don’t think the lecturers there will be telling them what to revise/work on.

(No axe to grind, just interested).

I hear you on the distances.. I have been quite stunned at the commutes my dd's classmates are doing, and same as your dd there are no opportunities to just chill out at the weekends together. I hope that changes as they get older, can travel independently and meet half way maybe. We live near-ish the school but no-one else does!

Mum I had read your post differently and I thought you were giving the last para as an example of why I was wrong as if I was lying about that when it's happened whereas you are using it to back up your previous points. That's the trouble with online.

I still think differently but can see were you are coming from.

I think it's normal for secondary of any kind to bf honest. It takes some kids a while to get their shit together

Thanks Fan - She's one of only 3 white girls, yes its one of the London ones. The Asian girls are nice and friendly and she's made 5 good friends but issue is almost all the girls don't live locally to the school (they are the 7am start for 8am arrival) so meet ups are difficult due to both homework and location.

The comps will be full but they are massive - 240 per year so would guess not too long a wait as we are fairly close to two and two we would have got in if we had put them first. My son is going to one next year so she would move to that one where the two sensible friends are. In some ways it would be easier having two at the same school. I wouldn't say the lack of white kids is an issue, but the lack of local ones is a bit. They are lovely girls and one is local but clubs every night as exceptionally high achieving in sport. She's OK with staying at the moment but will be transferring her start y8 if not any happier by school year end. She was very happy first half term so its only been a month of constant moaning, she's seriously tired. Commute to comp is similar but 1.5 hours less homework a day so time to do more activities. However, suspect comp may ramp up homework in higher years as they also start GCSEs in y9.

I was like this at uni happy, sad then stuck it out and loved it so want to give it a year and lots of people said their child took up to a year to settle. Husband is very against her changing schools but will change her if needed.

Mum I find the last point on your post odd/rude

Which is odd because I agreed with you and reposted something you had stated to demonstrate why.

Mum I find the last point on your post odd/rude - you could equally be wrong - and I have know idea why you have quoted the bottom quote, that is fact. I don't agree with some of what you are saying but each to their own and I'll leave you to disagree.

My dd's grammar says 1.5 hrs a night for 3 subjects. In reality, it is rarely that. Teachers don't set homework, or the kids start in class or do it at lunch break together as a group. Or it's easier than expected and DD whizzes through it.

Lily - you've posted before.. I think the "feel" of a school counts for a lot and if it fits a child, they will only grumble about the workload. Is this grammar a London school? It sounds unusual in that it's 95% Asian.. Does your DD feel she fits in?

I expect the comps in your area are all full anyhow so why not tell her that, but secretly make a backup plan for y8 if needed?

Do not assume that all grammar school children are hard working or motivated. It is plainly obvious that not all of them are. Some cannot cope and do not want to cope.They do not feel happy with their school and quite a few will have been tutored to the ends of the earth to get there.

I do notice that some children leave home at 7 am to get to a grammar school so presumably are late back in the evening. This seems a very long day and not conducive to a happy child. What about after school activities, a long journey home and then homework? Then we wonder why they are not happy? Or they are tired? What a surprise. They cannot be fulfilled or relaxxed.

Also, my children spent less time on homework but did a huge amount of extra curricular activity. House plays, music, sport, dance, drama, debating and more. They had a very enriched school life! One reason we have children who cannot cope is that they are not allowed to enjoy all a school should offer. Everyone judges a school by results but what you need are motivated children who get to have a go at lots of things. School should excite them with possibilities. If it is all about boring homework it really is not education that serves the children well or indeed our country.

As for having photos to show your achievements - absolutely not! It is just pandering to the "we do more with our lives" parents. That is a dreadful thing for a school to promote and nothing to do with education at all.

How on earth would you know that?!

Fwiw our comp is absolutely draconian about behaviour and uniform. We don't live in a grammar area (thank god) so not sure if that makes a difference

mountford100 that puts girls in to detention for what in most schools would be nothing

I doubt you would have sufficient insight into reasons for detention "at most school" to make that claim, tbh.

istory teacher teaching science GCSE and Head at both comps resigned last year. I'm not too bothered about this but after 4 Heads at their primary I very much appreciate the stability the grammar offers.

Yes exactly , as i said its reassuring my girls go to a school that puts girls in to detention for what in most schools would be nothing !

"I'm sure all schools are under pressure but the grammars results are significantly higher than the comps, 76 percent A/A stars in all subjects compared to 5 A to Cs for 50 percent of the comp kids"

Any guesses why that might be?

but the grammars results are significantly higher than the comps

I don't think it would take a genious to work out that the Grammar school gets higher results.

100% high ability = high results
30% high ability = lower results

It really is as simple as that.

I would have thought there would be more pressure on the grammar as there's nothing to blame if they don't get results

How on earth could they fail to get results - high ability DCs, hard working, motivated, heavily supported at home (and a willingness to throw in a tutor or two if DC is lacking confidence or isn't sure they will get the predicted A*) and little or no class room disruption.

I could be wrong though

Yes, perhaps your are:

The comp did though get no children with an A at all in a few subjects and one of the classes my friends just changed her DD out of saying the teacher couldn't control the class. I think you can work round that though. Another parent told me her DD had 6 science teachers in one year and a history teacher teaching science GCSE and Head at both comps resigned last year. I'm not too bothered about this but after 4 Heads at their primary I very much appreciate the stability the grammar offers.

I'm sure all schools are under pressure but the grammars results are significantly higher than the comps, 76 percent A/A stars in all subjects compared to 5 A to Cs for 50 percent of the comp kids, obviously very different intake but the grammars are getting results the same as private schools with similar intakes, much smaller classes and much more funding. I would have thought there would be more pressure on the grammar as there's nothing to blame if they don't get results, intake are bright, they've worked hard, they behave so difficult for the teacher who's future will be linked to it. I could be wrong though, probably a teacher would know best the relative differences but the teachers certainly seem under a lot more pressure than in y6 at DDs primary to get results.

DS1 has just started Y7 at a grammar school which is usually near the top of the league tables each year.

It is notorious locally for handing out tons of homework right from the start of Y7, so I expected a fair amount each night. In reality, DS spends less than an hour each night, usually more like 30 mins, and much of it is just finishing tasks from the lesson that day which he's already completed in class. He still moans about the amount he gets though! What did help was him meeting up with friends who have gone to the comp instead - he's realised that they get just as much homework, if not more.

The disorganisation, forgetting things and getting detentions for silly things is all very normal for Y7. Even the most organised children struggle with the transition to secondary and the extra personal responsibilities they gain. DS has dyspraxia and ADHD so finds these things difficult - strict routines, printed checklists for each day, wall charts in his room and using his laptop to send reminders to himself have all helped with this enormously. I think the slightly stricter rules and routines at his school actually help rather than hinder him as he is always very aware of what the expectations are. He'd sink into chaos in a more lenient school.

I think the grammars are under massive pressure to get results

I think you will find that all schools are under pressure to get results.

If Grammar schools are full of bright, hardworking, motivated DCs being taught in classes with little or no disruption, I dont see why Grammar schools would be under more pressure than any other school. In fact I would expect there to be a lot less pressure to get results.

Self motivation seems to be a problem for many there. My son won't actually do a "homework" unless it's formally set. So, he won't take it upon himself to revise, or read the next chapter, or whatever... So, there may well be an "expectation" from the older teachers that the kids use their initiative, but I think society is changing and the modern reality, as seen from the more recently appointed teachers, is that there is less initiative being shown generally, so more intervention is needed.

I could have written the first sentence (and subsequent ones) myself. This was DS's problem up until Year 11. He learned the hard way (less than stellar results) that lots of extra work was/is required in addition to the not over-taxing homework.TBQH his school's results this year took a bit of a dip (he was certainly not alone in under-performing). I think they've finally accepted that some pupils do need to be pushed more, rather than left to rest on their laurels (and potentially not do as well as they could/should) or self-motivate to study.

I'm not sure why they set so much homework in y7 and in year 8 its supposed to go up again.

They do GCSEs over 3 years so can understand a lot in y9-10-11 and I had a lot from my comp then.

Some of the kids at my DD's grammar did about 2 hours a night at primary from c. y3 to prepare for the grammar exams, it's not impossible some of these kids only get the results with lots of hard work though DD has said only 2/30 are noticeable. The school has issued warnings saying if your child needs lots of prep to get in they won't cope but that's not entirely true. When DD asked around she was the only one who hadn't done a massive amount of prep and 27/30 who have seem to be fine.

I think the grammars are under massive pressure to get results, the teachers job maybe results linked, may also be parental pressure at ours. In theory its supposed to be 1 hour to 1.5 hours but some of the tasks are more like 2 hours once you've factored in going to the shop to get all the things you need which I have included in the 2 hours as if she didn't have homework we/she wouldn't have to do this. Maybe other parents have a room with 6 different coloured modelling clays etc permanently stocked but I don't.

My son's school also seems to set huge amounts of homework

So a Grammar School that is educating bright DCs is setting huge amounts of homework, Why?

Surely Grammar school DCs should be able to grasp the concepts covered in KS3 fairly easily and quickly, why does the school feel the need to ramp up the work at this stage?

I would understand for yr 10 & 11 when they are working towards GCSEs (granted a number of Grammar schools have now moved to 3 year GCSEs so possibly yr 9 too) even then those DCs should not be finding the work so challending that they need hours of extra work, every day, Surely?

Thanks CrazyCrofter I'm seeing how it goes at the moment. I'm quite happy with the ethos, its my daughter who isn't but I can see where she is coming from and do think 2 hours a night in y7 is excessive. I would prefer she stays at grammar but the comp isn't bad.

Results wise I expect she would do well at either, possibly slightly better at grammar but GCSEs aren't that hard for bright kids so in reality there maybe no difference in results. Though I think they are making GCSEs harder. The comp did though get no children with an A at all in a few subjects and one of the classes my friends just changed her DD out of saying the teacher couldn't control the class. I think you can work round that though. Another parent told me her DD had 6 science teachers in one year and a history teacher teaching science GCSE and Head at both comps resigned last year. I'm not too bothered about this but after 4 Heads at their primary I very much appreciate the stability the grammar offers.

Up to y4 she was quite self motivated at primary but then stopped under peer pressure which is now removed at grammar. She started talking in text speak, with a local accent to fit in, won't do anything after school and this friend's family have SS involved, prison, drugs, suicide attempts and this friend is still encouraging her to go to fields in the dark though I'm banning it. There are two comps and the friends at one are sensible but they meet as a group and DD is very attached to this one girl. I feel for the girl but want DD away from that.

She has lovely friends at the grammar so no issue there and academically she's learning a lot. If she's still unhappy after a year I probably would change her over to the comp as my son is going there (boys school is an hour away) but I'm reluctant not to give it a good try first.