Tutoring for St Paul's and CLSB school Admissions

For what it's worth, our son was at a state primary. He got a deferred place to StP in year 5 and a place at CLB in year 6.

We did very little tutoring, 10 sessions on exam technique as the school didn't do that. The national curriculum is all that was needed. Just make sure he does his homework and reads lots. Do some extra curricular stuff and most importantly, don't stress about the process or the tests. Just do a bunch of test papers.

Good luck.

I agree that Indie schools know that State school kids won't necessarily have the polished references that Prep school Heads write. They also know that they might have covered limited languages etc.

In the end, the key thing they want is academic ability. There will be a level below which they just won't accept, even if someone is great at music or some other aspect. They may well have far more applying who meet their minimum academic standard, so then they will choose who to offer to, based mostly on entrance exam results, but also taking into account the other stuff a child can offer. So not having lots of grades on musical instruments will mean you don't get a music scholarship, but being involved with music and other extra curricular activities at or outside primary school will bode well and suggest a well-rounded child who is keen to get involved - that is what schools are looking for, along with academic ability.

And I would say few candidates have only the preparation done by their schools. Even those in Preps have parents who are prepping them by doing Bond Books or using other resources, plus widening their knowledge with trips and visits etc, or using tutors to do the Prep.

There will be the occasional state school child who gets into these top schools without parental or tutor involvement. They will be the exceptional truly truly bright one, whose ability just shines through. However this is rare and actually bearing in mind the level of parental interest needed to apply for these schools, a lack of parental involvement in either providing tutors or prepping themselves, is very unusual. An interested parent who has the ability to understand the application system and the willingness and ability to access materials and plan a prep campaign can prep as well as a tutor. I would say though that some prep from one source or another is definitely needed.

It's not true about "first pass the post" re exam scores.
Sure, they will have a mark which anyone scoring below won't be looked at further, but after that a whole tranche of factors come into play.

OP - the thing that is very important to the application will be the head's reference. At LU (and Hampton) they are very aware that it is not really in the remit of state primary heads to have to write references for indie schools - so they take this into account. For instance, st some state primaries, you have to pay a fee for the head to write the reference!

The reason I mention Latymer to you is that it has a high state intake at 11 plus and a strong bursary ethos. However, they tend to want more than straightforward academics. There are a few "bookish" introverted types there, but they are very much in the minority. They seem to like children who demonstrate confidence and a wide range of interests. There are some seriously talented musicians, artists - you name it. Debating is huge, they are encouraged to question and think outside the box, they really are. They say that the interview is to find children that seem to have some kind of spark, whatever the spark may be.
In the exam, there will be some very high "outlier" scorers yes, but out of the 450 who get interviews, many of their scores will be pretty much in the same ballpark. This is where the personality and the wider interests come into it. So you may well have slightly "lower scoring" applicants being offered places over higher scoring ones - e.g. if they come across as more articulate or have something else to offer.

I'm sure Hampton has a coach from the Hammersmith area - definitely from Chiswick. If it's not on the website, the reception will tell you.

Again though, (very) selective private schools, unlike grammars, are not looking simply at those who achieve the highest mark. So, as with any exam, you need to check that he has covered the material and make sure he has, and give him enough practice that he gets the timing right, but too much more than that can be counter productive.

Schools are interested as much in what kids can contribute to the school as much as what they offer the child. So some will gain places because of their sheer academic horse-power. But there will also be places for children who are good enough, but who also contribute to school plays, choirs, orchestras, sports teams, leadership etc. Schools will see education as something much wider than exam grades, and the schools you are talking about really don't need to buy in grades. The same will be true, perhaps more so, with bursary candidates, who hopefully contribute social or economic diversity as well as engagement in the wider life of the school.

A statement on the lines of "he really loves sport and is good at it so I wondered if he may sway toward sports at the expense of his academic potential" might cause concern. There is a noticeable "my child first" minority in some schools, which I suspect schools find frustrating. The founding principles of some of the schools mentioned are often more about education bringing responsibility. I suspect that at some point a child gains less from tutoring and more from spending their time reading, playing sport, hanging out with friends or doing things with their family. Academic intelligence is one thing, but emotional intelligence is what will see a child through the educational long haul.

OP - if you get an application pack for LU they will send you sample papers for Maths and English. Familiarisation with the format and types of questions is important as they are quite different to SATS. Also entrance exams vary widely - e.g. LU don't have a separate VR / NVR paper anymore, St Paul's may still have this.

If you were at a prep they would recommend you go for one or two "hopeful" options and one or two "back ups" (hate to use that term, but you know what I mean).
If you are going for a bursary place, you need to find out which schools are likely to be the best possibilities. I mentioned LU because it has a good track record in this as part of its ethos.

Have you also considered Hampton which has a large 11 plus intake? It may seem out of area, but the coach service is very extensive (shared with LEH). Similar to LU in terms of academics.

Try and get some sample papers for these kinds of schools - even any if the girls schools like G&L, SPGS. I think KCS has samples in its website.

I honestly don't think you have to be super gifted to get into City Boys (I don't know anything about St Paul's). Or even gifted. Every year one or two boys from my children's (requires improvement) primary try for City and every year one or two boys get in. I think it's about a 50% success rate.

My own son was one of them. He was top table but not top of the top table. He is bright but nothing extraordinary. He was tutored for an hour a week for a year and a half. I don't know if this is considered 'intensive' or not. I would also say that there's a big difference between the work they do in state primaries now and what he was doing a few years back, ie the gap between the 11+ exams and Sats has narrowed (for good or ill).

SPJS takes 30 boys in Year 7. Last year, 20 were from state primaries, 10 from prep schools that finished at Year 6.

There is also an opportunity for state primary boys to take the entrance test in January of Year 5, with the place being deferred until Year 7.

Also, as I understand it, for St Paul's at 11 plus, there are only 10- 20 places? (please correct me if this has changed). Most boys coming from state schools do the 10 plus for a deferred place (maybe 10 places available) the 11 plus is more geared towards preps that finish in year 6. Again, this might have changed in recent years? In any case, the main entry point to St Paul's is 13 plus.

Does the school your DS is currently at have any experience in preparing boys for 11 plus and are they guiding you in any way as to the process?

OP - I would say there is less if a "sporting culture" at Latymer Upper than somewhere like St Paul's. Sure it's there if you want it (rowing is particularly strong), but it's also quite easy to opt out of the traditional sports. Boys schools tend to have a more sports-determined "social order". This is not the case at Latymer.

There are boys and girls who turned down St Paul's, Westminster, SPGS and are at LU because they prefer a co-ed environment. These pupils are not particularly "stand out" academically. In terms of academic results you are really splitting hairs once you get to a certain point as a bright child will do equally well in either school. I think at LU last year, they achieved 100% A* in Maths (that's 180 pupils). They have their own GCSE accredited course called "World Perspectives" which teaches concepts in ideology, politics and economics which they wouldn't normally encounter until A-level. It's a very forward-thinking school, though maybe not suited to a more introverted pupil.

It varies. They have all had very academic / focused parents, who always did a lot in addition to the curriculum - visiting museums and galleries, trying out Science experiments, reading books set in the historical periods the children were studying.

I don't think any of them actually had a tutor, but I'm sure that their parents had done a lot of research about what would be in each different school's exam and prepared for them. So I guess they were 'tutored', but by mum or dad.

They were also using meal times as an opportunity to chat about stuff in the news and more open ended discussions - 'What super power would you pick and why?' 'Should we care about what other people think?' - anything to give their boys the confidence to share their views and think on their feet.

Talking about Latymer, from my current experience, art, drama and music seem to have a higher profile/gain more kudos than sports. I know a couple of mums with year 9 boys who feel that playing in 3 ensembles, performing in plays + musicals and spending a lot of time in the art department may be getting in the way of their DS's academic work!

OP - if you're in Hammersmith, why are you not thinking of Latymer Upper? I think it has the strongest bursary programme of selective indies and a high state school entry because it's intake is at 11 plus, not 13 plus. There are 140 places at 11 plus (with another 40 or so coming up from Latymer Prep). It's co-ed though, of course. There are about 1,200 applicants a year though, so make no mistake it is fiercely competitive. They interview about 400-500 for the 140 or so places and so DC do need to come across well in the interview too.

I teach year 6 at a (outstanding) state primary and we generally get one boy into St Paul's Juniors at 11+ each year. Highest ever was 3 out of 60.

The boys have always been the very top of the school, working about 2 to 3 years above the average. In addition, they have all been 'sparky' - very intellectually curious and often with a particular passion - history, classics, music, fantasy fiction...

St Paul's is working hard to become 'needs blind' - so if your son is right at the top of the ability range and you are not well off, they can offer a 110% bursary - not just the fees but also money for uniform, text books + school trips.

Our school has also sent boys and girls to Latymer Upper with a similar bursary.

DS attempted a similar school at 7+ from a state primary and the competition was extremely fierce. I "regret" not tutoring him for this particular exam as he was simply so disadvantaged compared to children from Preps that are geared for these independent schools and put children through every year. But we weren't really determined to get in IYSWIM. If your heart is set on it please get as much information and help as possible.

Bond isn't enough to prepare for these schools in my opinion. Your son will need to be able to do old sats levels 6 maths/English and that includes wordy maths problems and creative writing in a tight timescale. A tutor can assess where your child sits within the cohort of other very bright children who sit for these tests. To be considered for a bursary your ds needs to be operating at scholarship level across the board and possibly have something else to offer the school too. Even then the bursary may not be enough.

Not sure about St.Paul's but I'm aware that CLSB have a very good bursary scheme with around 1/3 of pupils on some kind of bursary. I would look into that although I'm aware that, in my current school, this involves quite a thorough process to see if you meet the criteria. Good luck .

Yes, so press for an honest opinion, making clear you are willing to hear the truth.

Too often schools find parents ask but don't want to hear the truth,so make vague noises which could be taken to mean lots of things, to avoid upset. If you are direct and explain you don't want to waste your and his time on things which are unrealistic, then I think they will be more precise.

• you could ask what his KS1 SATs indicate
• what he is on track for with KS2
• what percentile the school would place him in - not just in the school cohort, but nationally

For the schools you mention, the school need to be telling you that DS is extremely able, one of the brightest they have seen in recent years, is in the top 10% as an absolute minimum, is exceeding age related expectations by a considerable amount. Simply being told he is on the top table or gets 80% in tests isn't precise enough or an indicator that he is more than a commonly bright boy. And that's what you want to know isn't it - is he fairly bright, is he very bright, is he exceptional.

Of course there will be schools for all of the above. However the schools you name want the exceptional or at least the very bright. And they will only award scholarships and bursaries to those who are the best. That's a very small number of kids. It will be great if your DS is in that category. And if he isn't, there will be other schools to suit him....but the reality is that bursaries and scholarships tend to be given to those at the top of the pile.

Best of luck working through it all.