Fees aside....

3. Ethnically/internationally far more diverse than the grammars, if less financially/socially diverse......5. Less rugby-obsessed! I was surprised to find how much trad sports seem to dominate the grammars

It all depends on the grammar. My son's grammar is very ethically/internationally diverse, far more so than any other nearby schools as ethnic communities seem to value a good education more than the indigenous population - probably half his form are asian/african ethnicity. Yes, his grammar is "rugby obsessed" and is often in the semi-finals and finals of national rugby competitions, but it's certainly not forced on them and the ones who aren't in the teams have plenty of alternative options. My son only played rugby in year 7 which is the only year it was compulsory and that was only for a single term. I've been impressed at the various alternative choices they've had - he's played badminton, done cross country running, and played football in later years as alternatives to rugby.

Our DD is at Private school but went to Primary in a mixed area. She is well aware of how a lot of people struggle to live ordinary lives. Our friends are a mixed bunch as well so she mixes with a range of people ( although admittedly not the very poor)
The super rich at her school are very much in the minority and being flash is certainly not cool
While I agree that being at Private school can limit your friendship group to a certain sector of society it's not always the case, it's down to the parents.
Our DD is so" spoilt" that when we got her an iPad for her birthday last year she assumed we had got her something much cheaper and were just using the box as packaging!!!!

I think you have a point Witch children in the independent sector can start to think wealth is normal. But then I suspect children in nice MC areas at high performing states schools could think something similiar.
On the other hand children in the independent sector may also come to realise that wealth doesn’t make you happy, that messy divorce, poor health and untimely death still happens regardless of you wealth and that material possessions don’t make you happy or a better person.

Yes, I would hope that you're right. Plenty of spoilt children in the state sector and not-spoilt children in the independent sector. But I suppose I still can't entirely get rid of the fear that being cut off from (most) people for whom life is a financial struggle in your day to day life, can encourage the perception/ expectation that this level of wealth is, at best, 'normal' and, at worst, somehow your due. Sorry, spoilt brat was a bit of a crude shorthand!

And a correction, I meant 'secular' not 'non-secular'. A lot of high-performing state schools round here have a religious ethos which I would rather avoid.

“worries that DS would turn into a spoilt/entitled brat at independent.”
Over the years I’ve met some entitled spoilt brats in the independent sector and I’ve also met them in the state sector it’s the parents who create spoilt brats not the school.

OP we are going through exactly the same thought process ATM. Haven't made a decision yet (and finances will play a part, as will where he gets in, obviously!), but we are probably leaning towards independent for the following reasons, not in order:

1. IB (DS currently quite rounded with a bit of maths bias, suspect he will be become much less rounded in A Level system).
2. Co-ed. Huge factor for me.
3. Ethnically/internationally far more diverse than the grammars, if less financially/socially diverse.
4. Subject diversity, esp. languages. (On a recent open day I was quite surprised to find that one of the very well-regarded local schools - a high-achieving non-selective state - only offered one foreign language, and that only two people were taking it at A Level. Not through choice I'm sure. But DS loves the language stuff he's done so far and is really eager to try others.)
5. Less rugby-obsessed! I was surprised to find how much trad sports seem to dominate the grammars, esp. the super-selectives (DS much more likely to enjoy the more niche sports (swimming, badminton etc etc) than the big team sports. And may be more likely to find his 'tribe' as a result?)
6. Seemingly genuine success in teaching critical thinking and inspiring curiosity as well as instilling subject-knowledge for exams - I'm sure not linked to lack of desire on grammars' part to do this, but a function of smaller class sizes, outstanding calibre of staff, overall resources.
7. Potential widening of opportunities and vision for children - chances to travel abroad, listen to visiting speakers etc, may inspire appetite for eg working abroad, pursuing interesting careers in future (I know this happens at grammars but perhaps less so?).
8. Because of location, commute to school easier at independent.
9. Genuine and deep-seated fear over what is happening in state education, as someone who knows lots of people on the inside - appalling levels of teacher stress, staff turnover, ridiculous government interventions, funding crisis etc.

I know that is the answer to the opposite of the question you asked, sorry. Remaining reasons for considering grammars instead:

1. Never thought I would consider independent education. Think in theory that the country would be better without it. Will have to live with own hypocrisy. This is somewhat mitigated by the fact that I don't believe in the grammar system either!!!
2. Worries about lack of social diversity at independent - although not actually convinced that the grammars here are all that diverse! Esp given tutor-driven 11+.
3. Concern that DS would be poor relation at independent; we will never have the car/house/holidays that quite a lot of his peers will have.
4. Conversely, worries that DS would turn into a spoilt/entitled brat at independent.
5. Concern about what would happen in case of a change of circumstances. Would not want to have to move DS.
6. Effect on friendships - more mine than DS's (I know that most children move on from current friendships once they start secondary). Hardly anyone else I know considering independent.

Between the grammars and the independent, a lot of it now is practical decisions (can we afford it, what if we can't in future etc). The moral conundrum is probably more should we reject both grammars and independent and go for non-selective - but given DS's level of ability and types of interest, I think that would be quite a bold decision to make, and I would be very worried that my own desire to ease my conscience would come at the price of him finding it harder to fit in, make friends etc. If we lived near a co-ed, academically enriching, truly comprehensive, non-secular school, I would be going for that. But in the system where we live, I think independent will probably win out for us over grammar.

1. Because you are a socialist/communist/egalitarian of some sort.
2. Because you mistakenly think that a grammar will have pupils from a wider cross section of society (provate schools tend to have pupils from different countries and socioeconomic backgrounds and political persuasions while grammars in most areas are predominantly British left leaning middle class-although not in all areas, it really depends on the school).
3. You don't think that it is important for your child to be well rounded so long as they perform academically.
4. You are looking at a secular grammar school because you don't want your child to go to a school with a religious element (as many private schools do).
5. You don't like how full on private schools tend to be (with all the extra curricular a it can feel like your child is at school six or even seven days a week).
6. You are one of those parents who doesn't want their children to have what they didn't have (assuming you were not sent to a private school).
7. You want your child to go to a mixed sex school (where your private options are all single sexed).
8. You feel intimidated by private schools (assuming that you do).
9. You child's friends are going to the grammar (assuming that they are).

Lots of reason is the long and short of it all.

I too was a big fish in a little pond and actually I don't think it benefitted me one bit.

Steward, is that because you think you weren't pushed to try your hardest, or because other kids rejected you?

I would be very very careful. We chose an independent academic senior school for the children and years later the exam factory is all it is. Stressed teachers, shouty, stressed on edge children and very few extracurricular unless your child is in the top sports team; with over a thousand children, the chance of that being slim.

Dd1 was always a hockey player and plays for county but was cut from the team with no.explanation, so pretty ruthless too.

I moved my son to a different independent (boarding) and it's worlds apart and a much healthier environment. Planning to.move dd1 too.

I think you should choose the school that DD likes best.

To be honest the finances as some lesser independent schools are not so hot either. They have to look glossy to compete but this comes at a cost and the numbers on roll are vital, especially as some schools are not rich enough to afford generous bursaries or many of them. All is not rosy in the independent sector. Therefore I think comparing like with like is important. Some independent schools don’t attract the very brightest in large numbers but also, where we live, the Grammars are not full of the super bright either. Which suits your child best in terms of ethos, leadership and quality of teaching and learning would be a starting point.

Also bear in mind that the grammar will be following the national curriculum, and will have to do all the baseline testing/flight path/progress stuff. That could be a pro or a con depending on your viewpoint.

We have one in year 9 in a top selective independent and one in year 7 in grammar. The year 9 girl loved all the levels and testing stuff at primary and just earlier she was saying she wished they had target grades as that sort of thing motivates her. At her school the marking system is slightly incomprehensible - lots of A+,A(+),A(-/+) etc and end of year grades of 1(excellent),2(good),3(satisfactory). As 97% of GCSE grades were A or A* last year I assume she's on track generally but I've no idea what a 3 in Chemistry in year 9 really means!

Whereas my son in year 7 has had baseline grades ontte GCSE scale already for everything!

Also, the teaching methods and homework set at the independent are more old fashioned and there's less use of technology.

But the facilities and extra curricular are far superior. Ultimately they're both happy though so that's all I care about!

I think it depends on the quality of both the grammar and the independent.

An absolutely top flight independent can offer more than a grammar - the massive fees and highly able staff (not just academically able, but also in a range of other areas too which a state school just cannot afford to employ - eg top cricket coach) means a truly broad curri ulum of excellence can be offered.
The question is, will your child make use of the super duper opportunities or only those available in grammars or comps?
And will your child be at a top flivht indie or a more middling one which in reality migh not offer much more than the grammar in terms of curriculum, extra curriular or quality of staff.

It is hard to totally ignore the fees aspect because they are a key reason why the experience can differ so much. On an overall experience per £ I think the grammar must win. The question is whether you want to pay lots for the extras which my be very slight or significant depending on the indie in question.

I Actually think an indie can benefit a middling child most. Lots of indies will push and push and really force the best out of a child and get them to over perform of you like. That kind of child may not do so well in grammar with large classes and funding cuts.

Depends on the individual grammar, individual indie individual child, what the individual family wants and values most. Trouble is, when looking at these questions most people don't have perfect information especially about the schools, so its hard to decide.

For most, faced with a middling indie (and most are middling despite glossy brochure and sales pitch) and a child who can pass the state grammar exam for a good grammar, who aren't absolutely absolutely loaded, grammar is a good choice and the extras of indie are not worth it.....notice all the caveats.

Re the comment above re more time for time consuming activities if attending a grammar from our experience our small selective independent school actively encourages and supports children in their extra curricular pursuits as it reflects well on the school to have high achieving girls in sports etc. Also lots of very normal children at our school on scholarships and bursaries. For us it was the breadth of subjects studied, the size of the school and classes and facilities on offer

if you are thinking of day schools then geography play an important part. My DS had offers from a selective grammar school an hour bus ride away and an independent a short walk away. He chose the latter and went there (with a substantial scholarship) and really enjoyed it. Plan for a reluctant grumpy teenager in the depths of winter rather than your fresh faced 10/11 year old. Also do you want co-ed or single sex and from how far do they draw their pupils (because you will be ferrying them to friends houses)

Incidentally the social background of the pupils at both schools is very similar; primarily middle class. Hardly any pupil premium kids at the grammar school; and quite a few on full bursaries at the independent .

The “see real life “ is an interesting arguement. I would be the first to admit that compared with many my DS when at school didn’t see much “real life” although out of school he did see some but Im not going to patronise peoples intelligence by saying he saw lots. It’s inevitable that in our private lives generally we have a tendency to mix with others who are “like us” people who we meet doing the same things and who are interested in the same things we are.
But having said this during his gap year he did four jobs and worked with, socialised with and became friends with people from all backgrounds from multi multi millionaires through to those who are barely able to feed themselves. So I guess what I’m trying to say is that I wouldn’t make seeing real life or not my main criteria for choosing an school in either sector.
Choose the one you feel most comfortable at.

@goodbyestranger - ha you've made me laugh!

I shared bedrooms myself growing up but it seemed increasingly rare until my DD went to her grammar school. Now it seems normal, plus traveling by bus/tube and generally dealing with real life. It's a world apart from the comfy coach to the independent school we had otherwise in mind.

I don't regret it, bar the zumba of course

But come to think of it that probably replicated boarding school conditions without the fees (and admittedly the zumba).

That's good to hear FanDabbyFloozy, I hadn't actually realized I was providing a social service at our school until now (my three eldest girls - DC1, DC2 and DC3 - shared a bedroom, my three eldest boys - DC4, DC5 and DC6 - shared another bedroom and my last two, DS4 and DD4, shared a cupboard). I always thought we were relatively comfortable too.... but very glad to be of help :)

A grammar - regardless how selective - can rarely match the facilities and opportunities of the top independent schools. I see my DC's friends at indies doing sports ranging fencing to zumba while her school offer a paltry selection of sports in comparison. Ditto for subject choices along the way I'm sure.

However the grammar school child sees real life - even the most selective school has children from all walks of life. Several of my DC's friends share bedrooms and are short of treats at home, and boy has it made my DC grateful.
We could afford fees quite easily but for social reasons we went for a grammar. No right answer for all..

Goodbyestranger and llijk make critical points about the importance of school leadership and which demographic you want.

I dunno, OP. I can tell you why I would choose a school with a big range of society there. That I benefited from being a big fish in a little pond myself. That I don't want my kids socially isolated from other types of people.

but if you don't care about those things then you don't care about things I do, so our best decisions are different ones.

Grrrr: exam factory etc.