CATs score in top schools

@Ericaequites

" In general, elite American colleges admit many persons of color who can’t keep up with the big dogs academically."

Asians, for example Indians and Chinese, are most definitely people of colour and US College admissions teams don't do them any favours, or favors, as they would write.

All this IQ and race stuff is rather silly. Some time ago, the mean Irish IQ was around 80. It's around 100 now. The racist fools of the day used to argue the Irish were somehow inferior to the English!

IQ, even though it is a relative measure, is most definitely something than can increase, both for groups and individuals and is clearly culturally specific. If a New Guinean tribesman were to set his version of an IQ test, I doubt many of us would survive the experience.

@LibbyGray your child’s profile isn’t spiky at all and an average of 123.5 is exactly the kind of average predicted to gain admission to those types of selective schools assuming nerves don’t get the best of the child on exam day and it’s a good personality fit.

Congratulations on all your offers and best of luck deciding which to pick.

@NeverAgain2021 you don’t find out their ISEB scores but I knew he had done alright when he got asked back for interview at SPJ. That’s the weird thing - offer at Hampton, no offer LU... similar level school?! If you are prepping for 2022 entry then it’s all about the timing of practice. Go too soon with Atom and your child will get bored and lose interest. My DD got to hate Atom practice and it bored him rigid. 3 months from Sept should do it. I’m sure Atom helped his overall confidence with online exams, but I hear crazy stories of kids being prepped 12 months out and I just can’t see an advantage in that. Much better to read a book and expand horizons that way. My son is generally quite curious, and my experience has been that whilst ISEB was a ‘ticket to play’ this year, the interview was far more important to cement any opinion they had of your child. Neveragain21 implies you’re all done... is that not the case?! In theory you can’t raise your CAT scores as they are supposed to reflect future potential. That said, Bute house head this year got the girls all resitting their Yr6 CATs so she just have thought they could improve with practice?!! Good luck

As for Harvard admissions, black students are accepted with much lower SAT scores than white and Asian students. It’s been the subject of lawsuits. In general, elite American colleges admit many persons of color who can’t keep up with the big dogs academically. They tend to major in softer subjects. The mismatch for medical and law schools is even worse.

@LibbyGray really appreciate your sample of one. Great information and congratulations to your DS on all those offers. Perhaps he did very well in the ISEB? Do you find out the scores they got in the end.

Also, his profile doesn't sound too spiky, my DS (lower year group than yours) has a profile that's got 37 points between the highest and lowest in his CAT score... Very spikey :(

Can I ask, did Atom or any other practice help improve his scores at all? Or did everything remain pretty much consistent?

We have some work to do to raise DS's scores a bit at least, esp in the weakest area.

For any lurkers revisiting this thread for 2022 entry, I believe there is an overemphasis placed on the role of CAT scores over other data points. Clearly in this disrupted 2021 entry, ISEB results were used by many selective schools as the key ‘exam’ datapoint backed up by academic interview. There has been much debate here on correlating CAT/Atom/ ISEB scores. Mine is merely a ‘sample of 1’ but if it helps any parent not to catastrophise their kids’ CAT scores and have confidence - my son had a very spiky profile (118 maths, 123 English 125 verbal 128 non verbal). He has received offers from Hampton, KGS and 2 other selectives, waitlisted for SPG and a straight no from LU. Don’t write your DS or DD off if they have CATs under 120. If they have an engaging personality and are curious this means far more to the school. Good luck!

Very interesting. Given what Atom have said about the difference between Atom/ISEB and CAT scores (i.e. that Atom scores tend to be 6-8 points higher than CAT), can we assume - broadly - that a CAT score of, e.g., 125 would translate to an ISEB score of 131-133?

Has anyone yet had the opportunity of comparing their CAT (or similar standardised) scores from their prep/private/state school with the ISEB ones?

Also, have anyone yet heard whether schools tend to look at the separate components of the ISEB or the total score, or does it depend completely on the school?

I do realise that many state schools do not do CATS and that even those that do, may not automatically disclose to parents.

Thanks

Just found the ISEB info for parents too: www.iseb.co.uk/Parents/Common-Pre-Tests

Fellow state school parent here! DS has now done both ISEB and CAT as part of various entrance processes for indie schools. CAT is supposed to assess the abilities that underpin academic attainment across different subjects, as described here: www.gl-assessment.co.uk/support/cat4-product-support/cat4-information-for-parents/

ISEB has verbal and non-verbal reasoning components (so also assesses abilities underpinning attainment), but also has maths and english components that assess attainment/ability in those specific subjects.

ISEB is supposed to be a pre-test for 13+ entry exams, but due to the pandemic, was used as an 11+ entrance exam by a lot of schools this year

Sorry for total state school naivety here but is CAT the same as ISEB? Thank you.

@LondonGirl83, what you say makes sense, and is actually compatible with what has been said elsewhere in this thread. Top 10% equates to a CAT score of 119, top 3% is a score of 128 or so.

I think the reason that schools talk about 130 plus is that these are scores achieved AFTER the DC have done lots of VR and NVR practice. Practice won’t make a DC whose underlying ability is 110 suddenly score 135, but it may boost scores by say 5% to 10%. So say a child before they have had any practice/tutoring, scores 120. After lots of VR and NVR tutoring, they instead score 125 to 130. This is then what the school Heads suggest is required in the competitive London schools where such tutoring is the norm.

I remembered this debate when recently reading the ISI report for St Paul’s school:

“Its own assessments indicate that the ability of pupils is also well above average. Most pupils are in the top 10 per cent nationally and half are in the top 3 per cent”

The floor seems to be the top 10 percent but you are in with a much better shot if you are top 3 percent or above.

I think all the top schools select the top 10 percent as a floor and then it’s just a question of how many of the pupils are well above that. It’s say for the top tier schools probably have circa half being top 2-3 percent while the next tier down maybe only have 15-20 percent at that level with the bulk closer to or even below the top 10 percent mark.

www.isi.net/school/st-paul-s-school-7036

My dc scored 136 Vr 127 nonVr and recently got places at Alleyns and JAGS. But we know a few brilliant kids scoring higher and didn’t get offers.... which tells me that these scores aren’t really indicative of offers of places. The entrance exams /process looks at other skills etc too. That said you can’t progress to the Main exam unless you pass the VR/Non VR test at some schools..... JAGS for eg.

@Tiredof11plus - 133 is a very good score. To have an average score higher than 130 across all batteries of test, statistically places a child far higher, than a high score on only one or two batteries. Our daughter’s recent CATS average was 139, and we were told by an EP that was well within top 1%. Out of 65 children, only 2 children scored an overall average higher than 130.

In a paper published by City of London School for Girls from 2014 the school state that their testing suggests most of their girls were top 5% nationally or higher. That is a floor not an average...

democracy.cityoflondon.gov.uk/documents/s42347/14%20Gifted%20and%20Talented%20Policy%20DRAFT%20-%20Sept%202014%20Annex%20N.pdf

Hi zaggybuns and usernamealreadyexists! Do heads of prep school allow pupils to apply to super selectives if their CAT scores are considered low? DS has CAT scores ranging from 126 to 141 with a mean around 133 and the school was OK with us applying to a couple of super selectives. I believe, from what I read, that a 133 mean would be in the bottom end of the spectrum for super selectives... What do you honestly think? Thank you!

Spoke to the Head of my son’s prep today and his view is that scores of 130 are required to get into UCS, which is not a tier 1 school, I thought. Sounds a bit bonkers to me.

I agree with Prufrockspeach. My DC got 125 and got offers on the Main List from W, SPS, Eton....beyond CAT and the exams they look for what the child can offer in terms of extra curricular activity too and how they come across in the interview. A top student at the school did not get offers because the child clammed up at interviews. Crazy process

I have DCs who got into the sort of schools requiring "135+" CAT scores and none of them have scores that high.....more in the 125-127 average. One DC was very spiky (i.e. scores ranged from 141 to 115) and the other was the same across the board. Both were academic scholars and both are in the top quartile at their schools. I remember getting really worried about their "substandard" CAT scores prior to pretests when I needn't have worried. It's just one data point out of many. Resilience, focus, drive, the ability not to get sucked into the party scene or let young love distract you too much are equally important when it comes to success at school (and beyond).....

having huge amounts of stress over 'is he bright enough to get into school x', and robbing his childhood by constant tutoring

I appreciate that some parents do seem to approach it like this but that wasn't the case for us at all. DD had about 6 months of tutoring (one hour once a week, breaks for holidays) which mainly consisted of teaching her the best way to approach taking an exam and I wasn't worried about whether she was bright enough to get in because if she hadn't been I didn't actually want her to get in. She sat only for two schools, one state and one private, and got into both. Had she not done so we had a perfectly good nearby comprehensive which I would have been happy for her to go to.

The reason we did the exams was that DD wanted to - mainly because there were some subjects taught at the selective schools that she really really wanted to do. These were not available at the comprehensive choice which is honestly otherwise a really nice school. And two of the things she fancied learning weren't available at the state selective option (one sort of was but only as a weekly club rather than a GCSE or A Level option). As it turns out the thing she could not learn at any of the state options available to us is now one of her favourite subjects and she is doing really well at it. She wouldn't have suffered by not being able to do it. But she's definitely benefited hugely from doing so. Agree with Flume that I also wanted somewhere that wouldn't be stuck rigidly to the curriculum and somewhere that DD would feel at home.

grumpy For me (can’t speak for other parents) I was looking for a school which taught at dd’s natural pace, where she didn’t stand out in terms of interests and abilities, where she would have lots of opportunities to do things beyond the curriculum (not sticking rigidly to what is needed to pass exams, but using class time to branch off into other interesting things). So it wasn’t a question of ‘Will this school ensure amazing exam results?’, which I agree should be a given if the intake is that selective. It was a question of ‘Given dd’s character and abilities, will she thrive here?’.

IGCSEs are not easier, or at least they weren’t before the GCSEs were overhauled. My DDs selective school now sit a combination of both depending on the subject and syllabus. They prefer the more challenging option whether it’s IGCSE or GCSE because a) the girls at the school are capable of it and b) it provides a better stepping stone to A levels which are much harder.

There are a few things I'm struggling with here. Everyone is banging on about the fantastic results that the super selective schools get, yet if the children going to these schools have CAT scores (aka IQ) levels of 125+ surely you'd expect these results for these children regardless of where they go?
Equally why are the super selective schools still (at least in part) using the easier IGCSE exams to boost their results?
DS2 got exceptional GCSE results in his non selective state school - no idea of his CAT scores since they have never been measured but he's very academic. I firmly believe that paying massive school fees, having huge amounts of stress over 'is he bright enough to get into school x', and robbing his childhood by constant tutoring would have made no difference at all.

The average CAT score at DS' school was 123 this year and over a quarter of the year were above 132 (we get lots of data). It's a selective prep. Not sure if that is as a result of teaching/coaching by school, selection, parents tutoring etc... but don't think it would be unusual amongst the private London preps. You also need to bear in mind that KCS, Westminster and St Paul's boys all have their own preps whose boys take up a big chunk of the available spaces reducing the number available quite significantly from the figures being discussed.

Our daughter is at prep in an affluent area, and her high 130s CATS were the highest average in her year, which did surprise me at the time, as there was only one other child out of over 60 children, who had averaged over 130. I had somehow assumed that high scores would be the norm for an affluent area prep, but apparently the average, was not a lot more than the national average...