STEP (maths at university)

That is true, moving STEP to the autumn could help, but it would have to have the same level of perceived difficulty as MAT. dd doesn’t think it’s a timing issue. She could be wrong though, just because that’s not an issue for her, it may well be an issue for others.

At the taster day she went to at Cambridge there was a good representation of women there.

I’m sure there is more that could be done, we just can’t think of anything. I only have experience of one dc half way through the process obviously so it’s exceptionally limited experience. It seems to be that the most confident students in their ability tend to apply for cambridge, the less confident for Oxford but of course confidence does not equal actual ability.

We don’t know what more Cambridge can do. It’s a self reinforcing thing, that the more it’s known that very few females apply, the less likely they are to apply because they feel they won’t fit in.

Well, it is clear that Cambridge could do more.

For example - change from STEP admission to definitive admissions tests taken in the Autumn, as Oxford maths does. Oxford does have better gender ratios than Cambridge and I don't believe its students are particularly weaker.

For example - make more of an effort to improve gender ratios at staff level, so that more of the staff interviewing/doing open days/running taster days are female.

Cambridge Maths itself (via its Athena SWAN plan) would acknowledge that there are many areas to improve. (I should say though that dropping STEP in favour of Autumn tests does not have support within the maths departments as far as I know.)

If you're advertising a service, don't you normally have to pay for the advertising?

Does this rule apply when the service does not itself charge money?

I hope the thread doesn’t go poof, even though it slightly contravenes the no advertising without asking rule because it’s taking an interesting direction.

User I just asked dd your question about why fewer females apply to Cambridge to do maths. It is a confidence thing she thinks, even when students show equivalence in ability. Cambridge have clearly put in steps to try and improve the issue, for example a weekend for potential female applicants.

She thinks there is a perception that Oxford seems easier to get into for a place that carries the same level of prestige, even though it isn’t any easier, it’s just different.

One aspect is simply MAT is much easier than STEP and that colours their thinking. It’s also not taken at the same time as A levels so there isn’t so much concentrated pressure. Oxford seems to have a much less stressful application process overall.

We don’t know what more Cambridge can do. It’s a self reinforcing thing, that the more it’s known that very few females apply, the less likely they are to apply because they feel they won’t fit in.

One idea dd and I have postulated as might being helpful would be an online forum/website for young female burgeoning mathematicians, where it could help normalise the idea that girls can do hard maths. UKMT could advertise it with UKMOG perhaps.

Why don't you just get the title edited to STEP (useful information for maths at X, Y, Z universities) Note - STEP not required by most maths degree courses.

I don't think this thread should go poof!

It is the kind of stuff that we don't get to hear about so when someone points out free information it can only be beneficial.

It is great that a lot of universities don't require it though and as there are five choices on the UCAS form the students can put a mix of choices down.

I haven't looked at all the college websites, but I was going by this from the Com Sci site, would have thought STEP would have been mentioned if some asked for it?

Computer Science
Required by all Colleges: A Level/IB Higher Level Mathematics
Required by some Colleges: A Level/IB Higher Level in a second or three science/mathematics subjects and/or particular subjects

Would definitely be interested to hear if any colleges had required STEP.

Oh thanks, it must have been that earlier guide I was thinking of. (Which has no typical three A star offers I notice, allthebest!)

I found the more recent one this morning and was sure it wasn't what I'd seen before. But please don't go to any further trouble on my account - my son is a good mathematician, happily doing further maths, but he wants to study computer science, so unless he decides to go for maths and comsci at Cambridge (unlikely atm) he won't need STEP. I just wanted Allthebest to back up their claim.

Again what worries me is that some students (particularly women) are already put off studying maths at university by over-estimating the entry requirements. Many seem to think that further maths is essential - whereas in practice even universities within the top 10 (definitely top 20) are taking half or so of maths students without further maths A level.

STEP is essential for the top few mathematics courses. Few students are going to have STEP at top10 - top 20 courses - I say that as an external examiner for two such courses.

I really don't want more students (particularly women) put off studying maths at university.

And a related question: the fraction of students studying maths at Cambridge who are female is well below the average of maths courses in the UK. The most likely explanation is that women are more risk averse and do not want to have to gamble on getting good grades in STEP. What can be done to address this issue?

On a different note...
If you're advertising a service, don't you normally have to pay for the advertising?

I'm not disagreeing with you user, I'm doubting allthebest!

User, I was countering Allthebest who said “It is so competitive for Maths now that you are unlikely to get maths offers for Cambridge or Warwick without 3x A* plus a 1 on STEP2 and 3.” which clearly isn’t true. I suspect you are right, it’s such a large course that they can be very specific about their offers, without having to fine tune their pickings.

Kitten: Warwick are completely transparent about their offers. They give standardised offers. I suspect that their offers are not actually decided in detail by academics but by admin teams (according to rules given by academics), although perhaps another poster knows more about that than me.

Since Cambridge looks closely at each candidate, interviews etc, and offers are made by colleges rather than departments, there is a bit more variation. Indeed somebody from one college may not know exactly what offers their counterparts at other colleges are giving! (Although of course there is discussion at departmental level....)

For current anecdotal info, dds Warwick offer is A A A with a 1 in any STEP. for MMath. The website says that it may be reduced for good scores in MAT or TMUA.

Trinity don't give higher offers than other colleges for maths. They do occasionally ask for an S but the offer quoted is fairly standard across all colleges. There is some variation on what is accepted in August though - Trinity would rarely drop below STEP 1,1 while colleges towards the bottom of the Tompkins (league) table can be a bit more willing to take a STEP 2 in paper III.

Remember that a "typical" offer does not mean "all" offers. It does happen that A level grades higher than 2 A star in Maths/FM and an A in Physics are requested but across all colleges this is not typical.

BTW the difference between requiring 2 A star and 1 A (in specific subjects) and 3 A star is fairly minimal for most students getting maths offers, as they are very likely to get at least 3 A stars anyhow.

Trinity - who would probably be expected to have the most demanding standards - say they ask for "A A A plus good grades (typically 1,1) in STEP Mathematics II and III" so I'd like to know who's fussier than them!

Allthebest any chance you could point us towards the relevant college website, save is trawling through them all?

I'm sure there used to be a page which gave all the colleges' requirements for tests at interview and their usual offer (there does seem to be plenty of variation college to college at Cambridge - one reason why an Oxford application seems more appealing to me), but I can't find it atm.

Well, the Cambridge maths admission page is giving out misleading information then, as it says the typical offer is AAA plus STEP.