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Original poster

Should secondary teachers have to pass a subject knowledge exam before being allowed to teach that subject?

154 replies

noblegiraffe · 24/10/2017 09:53

Something I've been wondering lately. The threads about unqualified teachers, teachers teaching outside their specialism, whether requiring teachers to have a degree is meaningful when many teach a subject not relevant to their degree.

I know subject knowledge isn't all, and people can be very knowledgable and still be crap teachers, but can you have a good teacher who doesn't meet a minimum standard of subject knowledge?

OP posts:
BoneyBackJefferson · 27/10/2017 23:03

*now not know

BoneyBackJefferson · 27/10/2017 23:02

cantkeepawayforever

Interesting then that you post this

Pretty much any DT subject by a teacher of any of the others. Art / Textiles also probably interchangeable.

and know this

Particular skills knowledge is critical to teach maths, music, art, most DT and PE well.

cantkeepawayforever · 27/10/2017 21:42

That's quite funny, since I am one....and teach upper KS2, so children only a year or so younger, on average, than the Y7s I was describing.

I can see that if you are used to teaching a fairly 'fixed' core curriculum that has not varied hugely both since you were at school and since you started teaching (so algebra, for example, is fairly unchangeable) then the idea of teaching a subjec with different subject knowledge sounds scary and tricky.

However, if you anyway have to learn new subject knowledge in most subjects quite often, as pretty much all primary teacher have had to - as a PP said, ancient civilisations in Benin, anyone? - or if you teach a subject that evolves rapidly such as computing or some Science or Politics, then the process of 'acquiring new subject knowledge in order to teach it well' is embedded in your professional routine. It is probably also true of those who specialise during their degree - e.g. historians who narrow down on a specific period - but who may have to teach wholly different periods to GCSE or A-level students.

I will emphasise again - precise subject knowledge, or at least knowledge of a related subject such as a different period but still history, or earlier versions of Computing or Media or Politics - is definitely preferable for all subjects from Y9 upwards if at all possible. Particular skills knowledge is critical to teach maths, music, art, most DT and PE well.

BoneyBackJefferson · 27/10/2017 20:31

cantkeepawayforever

All you have done with your list is show how little you know about teaching and teachers.

Pengggwn · 27/10/2017 20:12

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Pengggwn · 27/10/2017 20:11

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Original poster
noblegiraffe · 27/10/2017 20:05

I remember being told once (might have even been by some Ofsted consultant) about a lesson that was rated 'outstanding' even though the teacher didn't turn up. The kids all came in, got some project work out and got on with it, and this was apparently a good thing, that the teacher was totally redundant Hmm

I wonder if anything will change now that knowledge and telling kids stuff is coming back into fashion.

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Pengggwn · 27/10/2017 19:28

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Original poster
noblegiraffe · 27/10/2017 19:18

Oh you could be right Pengggwn, this is a sage on the stage versus guide on the side thing isn't it? How could the English system promote subject knowledge in teachers while at the same time telling them to stop talking in lessons?

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Pengggwn · 27/10/2017 18:36

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Trafalgarxxx · 27/10/2017 18:21

I dont think it has anything to do with being a maths teacher TBH.

If French isn't your subject but you are given a Y7 or 8 class in french in the basis that youve done some french 15 years ago, there is no way you can give a proper lesson.
History and geography is the same. What is important isn't that the much the deep knowledge of a specific period. It's knowing how to interpret a text, put it into context within that period etc... all the things you have learnt for one period but is applicable to all of them. (And usually applicable in history and geography, which is why, at least where I am, you can do an A level in history if you have a CGSE in geography and not one in history itself). A maths teacher or an English teacher will not have learnt those skills...

Etc etc

Trafalgarxxx · 27/10/2017 18:13

I fully agree with you noble.

And I would add that even at Y7 level, not knowing your subject can cause problems when you have the bright children in front of you and can just simply see through the fact it's not your speciality.

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 27/10/2017 18:13

The Scottish system sounds completely sensible, that you can only teach subjects you are trained in. Why does the English system seem to think that subject-training is optional? Is there some ideology behind it before the teacher shortage got so dire they couldn't afford to have any standards?

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CuckooCuckooClock · 27/10/2017 18:10

I'm a physics teacher and once had to teach an electronics GCSE. I lasted until Christmas. It was the cdt type electronics and I'd never even used most of the equipment myself. Was a nightmare.

But, I teach stuff now that hadn't even been invented when I was at school (new technology on the science spec.) so with an interest a teacher can learn new stuff they've never studied but what really does matter IMO is enthusiasm and passion which I could not personally muster if I had to teach music for eg.

Pengggwn · 27/10/2017 18:04

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HarveySchlumpfenburger · 27/10/2017 17:56

Hopefully teaching 'ly' words is dying out.

Pengggwn · 27/10/2017 17:55

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HarveySchlumpfenburger · 27/10/2017 17:54

Medieval Benin, on the primary curriculum, anyone?

I'd be surprised if many teachers had a great deal of prior subject knowledge before that was added as an option Grin

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 27/10/2017 17:39

DS is in Y4 Blush His school don't really set homework though. I didn't know that 'often' was an adverb, I think I was taught they were ly words.

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TeenTimesTwo · 27/10/2017 16:14

noble re adverbs, by the time your little one reaches y2 you will be quite well versed in English grammar, and by the time they get to y6 you will be ace!

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 27/10/2017 15:22

Hmm, I wonder if being a maths teacher is skewing my perspective? I’m teaching pretty much the exact same stuff I was teaching 12 years ago. Fractions, trig, quadratic equations, even the same A-level syllabus (sadly changed for current Y12 but still calculus and a bunch of algebra). It’s really rare for me to go into a classroom and teach it for the first time, unlike...most other teachers?
So subject knowledge seems more important to me.

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Slightlyperturbedowlagain · 27/10/2017 14:27

It's an interesting question when considering science where boundaries are expanding rapidly and some concepts/understanding is changing. This means that teachers who took a biology degree in 1980, or even 1990 for example, won't have covered many current aspects of genetics. And science degrees can be so specialised that they may be irrelevant to a GCSE or A level. What it should do though is equip you to learn in your subject area. In HE there are times when we aren't far ahead of our students with learning new concepts, but again it's the contextual knowledge that's important.

Pengggwn · 27/10/2017 14:18

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Original poster
noblegiraffe · 27/10/2017 14:17

Pengggwn to be fair there was more to the cover lesson than that, but when you read the first line and don't know what you're doing you know it's going to be a long hour!

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Original poster
noblegiraffe · 27/10/2017 14:15

joinourclub that sounds like my worst nightmare. I think most likely the head does employ teachers to teach subjects but has found themselves short of a particular type and so is saying that to force teachers to do stuff they won't want to.
I doubt the job advert would get many replies if it just said 'teacher of any subject'.

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