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Original poster

Son suspended

34 replies

sinceyouask · 14/10/2017 10:47

Ds1 started secondary school this year. Less than half a term in and he has earned a fixed term exclusion. He deserves it, it's a serious offence (I am not going to say what it is as anyone who knows me and may read this will definitely be able to identify me). He has been under CAMHS for a year with a diagnosis of ADHD for which he is medicated and occasionally sees a psych, who mostly advises me to be kind and him to try to behave. I work in mental health and given the seriousness of this latest issue and the fact that he seems not to recognise how serious is is, I have managed to wangle him a pro bono appointment with one of our psychiatric consultants on Monday afternoon. The consultant is a very experienced psych who is attached to our camhs PICU and I believe will be able to formulate a more accurate diagnosis than we have had so far. DS1 reminds me very much of some of the children who end up on our PICU and our psych agreed his behaviours and way of thinking about them sounded similar to certain patients when I explained what was happening. ADHD does not explain what he has done.

Anyway, his mental health is not what I wanted to talk about here. It's the sheer bloody shame. I don't feel like I can bear to face the school again, although obviously I have to, not least at the reintegration meeting. I feel like they will judge us forever as a terrible family. DS2 is supposed to be going to that school in a few years but I have started to think maybe he shouldn't because no matter how professional the staff at ds1's school are, they will always see ds2 as his brother. Ds2 is almost his polar opposite- the most trouble he has ever been in in his life was having his name moved down two spaces for talking too much!

I'm annoyed that when ds1 first presented obvious issues years ago, his primary school brushed them off and it wasn't until I cried to my GP and begged that he was referred to camhs; primary school eventually promised to refer him to the ed psych but never did. And his secondary school didn't take my concerns seriously until this incident. I tried from before he started to alert them to the fact that ds's problems are far more significant than they seemed to think (based on the info handed over by primary school). They really seemed to see me as an over anoxious helicopter mother. Now of course, they know why I was worrying.

I know this post is a bit ridiculous. I feel ridiculous. I feel like an awful mother. I don't know what to do. I don't have much hope for ds1's future.

What should I be asking the school at and in preparation for the reintegration meeting? How can I get ds1 to understand how serious the situation is? How can I deal with this shame and guilt?

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Original poster
sinceyouask · 21/12/2017 13:53

That's Warwick Dyer's book isn't it? I'm not a huge fan of his tbh. If you think it's really worth it I'll give it a go.

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CauliflowerSqueeze · 21/12/2017 09:39

Only one piece of advice:
Read “Mercury’s Child” - it will all become clear!

Nettleskeins · 20/12/2017 22:04

CAMHS have been useless for us btw...Read lots, focus on structures rather than boundaries, pick your battles ruthlessly (ie: don't fight homework battles, reduce down the demands on that score - he'll be terrified of failing so a little bit of work is much better than no work with tantrum) Get the SENCO involved. Keep emailing the SENCO for advice and liaison every time there is a problem, not to excuse him but more to find how to stop the same problem happening again.

Nettleskeins · 20/12/2017 21:58

Sorry, not very clear about the remorse in para 2..I mean he won't say sorry, but the mere fact that he lies is a sign he feels guilty. Teens of that age lie a lot. It is part of developing an independent mind set ifysim, when you start obsessing about "lies" you are fighting the wrong battle. Of course he lies, he doesn't want to be punished. Adults lie/decieve others about all sorts of things to get themselves out of trouble, why wouldn't an 11 year old with ADHD?

Nettleskeins · 20/12/2017 21:53

I agree with Sauvignon about the fresh start. Noble made the good point that these fixed term exclusions are very small fry for schools, even if you think he has blown it.

He is 11. He isn't going to feel remorse, he is going to lie to cover himself (which shows he doesn't like being in the wrong, so it is a sign that he is remorseful and guilty although you might think otherwise)

School should be now giving him a lot of pastoral support to get him back thinking positively. In my son's secondary, which is certainly not perfect, they do lots of residential trips for the more "badly behaved" children, and praising them if they get C's instead of E's.

I've been through all this with my two sons, one with undiagnosed dyspraxia for two years at secondary, who suffered quite a few suspensions, and the second who has ASD, brilliantly behaved but couldn't cope at all (I took him out of school at end of Year 7 and home edded for two years, he is back in a different school with EHCP now, doing very very well, 100percent attendance etc) I know how you feel personally humiliated and how quickly this filters back to the kids.

Stop telling him off. Focus on positives even if there are very very few. Absolutely write the slate clean on the last incident and don't refer to it. Tell school you want a positive behavioural intervention support policy, can they suggest what they might do to help (be nice at this point not defensive) emphasise how unhappy your son is, rather how naughty he is.

The school work is now not nearly as important as his self esteem in school and at home generally - how can you build that up so he doesn't resort to attention seeking strategies to bolster his fragile self image.

NB. Home education is wonderful. I recommend it. Blame and guilt are no longer issues. Ds2 made new friends, and blossomed academically when the pressure was removed. He is back at school since Year 10.

ASauvignonADay · 20/12/2017 19:04

We had a bit very much like your son who got stuck in a cycle of negativity (and we were honestly trying all sorts to turn it around), he was convinced everyone had it in for him and almost tried to prove what he thought people thought about him was true. He went on a trial to a different school and he was like a different child. Often doesn't work but maybe your ds needs a fresh start with new staff and maybe new peer influences?

Original poster
sinceyouask · 19/12/2017 13:29

I managed to get hold of CAMHS to ask for another appointment, so that's something. They will phone me, apparently. My approach last night was basically falling back on the old 'focus on the good and deny attention to the bad' approach with a bit of a lovebomb thing going on, and we did get through the night with only one, relatively mini, incident. He was spoiling for a fight this morning by insisting on wearing with his Christmas jumper old joggers and trainers which both have holes in and don't fit any more but I took the easy way and said, fine, you will be uncomfortable and I don't think this is a good idea but it's not worth a battle, go ahead. I have to try and be more positive, I think.

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chaosreins · 19/12/2017 08:52

Whilst not the same in any way, my dd had a horrific time in Yr 8 in the wrong school with the wrong head and wrong friends, her behaviour was shocking and had a similar impact on our family. She has recently changed schools received the right diagnosis and is doing considerably better. Im not naive enough to believe this will be the end of our challenges but she finally seems much happier and has reverted back to the child she was. I really feel for you but keep going and pushing for the right diagnosis and support, it will work.

Original poster
sinceyouask · 18/12/2017 18:53

I think there's a few factors. He has more going on than adhd, but services are taking the "he's been diagnosed so nothing more to do on that front" approach. Transition to secondary was always going to be hard. Starting adolescence means adding the normal emotional up and downs and hormonal changes to the mix. Secondary school has been a massive disappointment to him which is having a huge impact. He isn't able to communicate what is really wrong but he needs to communicate that something is, hence the increased behaviours. We aren't getting it right as parents- dh has become so fed up of it all that he's just getting angry and I am becoming so defeated by it all that I am just losing the ability to cope, which means no one is really in control and that's scary for any kid, let alone one with his needs. Ds1 knows his behaviour is hurting us all, he feels shit about that even if he can't admit it, but the more it happens the harder it is for him to change his ways. He's not coping with school work at all and his response to that is to give up- he refuses to try because then he hasn't failed, he just hasn't done it.

I can assess us just fine, what I cannot do is fix any of it!

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admission · 18/12/2017 18:19

I think the challenge here is to find what has been the trigger for all this negativity and bad behaviour. It is not as though he has always been a nightmare from what you have written, he has become a nightmare.

If you can establish what it was then there is a possibility of creating a situation where you can help him. Without that key I suspect that you will not be able to make any improvement - sorry that I know is harsh to say, but in my opinion likely.

I wonder whether a change in school is a possibility and whether that gets him away from whatever the problem is but doing and then finding no change would be hard to get over, so you really need to have established the issue is something at school before you consider this.

camaleon · 18/12/2017 17:19

So sorry sinceyouask. I have no wise advice but it must be really hard. Don't feel ashamed of your thoughts. You have the right to have them and you also have the duty to protect your son. But you know this and you are doing all you can.
Hopefuly wiser mumsnetters will intervene soon.

Original poster
sinceyouask · 18/12/2017 12:46

The worst thing Division is that I am starting to lose my sympathy for him. Last night I just wanted to not be his mum any more, for all of this just to not be. I didn't want to make it better for him, I wasn't thinking as I usually do of how shit he must feel to behave that way, i just wanted it to stop for me. And I did cry, and he took the piss out of that too, and honest to god I wished he was not my son. I'm probably feeling extra sensitive about it all today because of the shame of having had those thoughts last night. If I don't have his back 100% god knows no one else will.

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DivisionBelle · 18/12/2017 12:29

That sounds very hard, SinceYouAsk.

And tough on him, too.

Of course he wants to feel he is in control by setting up 'self fulfilling prophesies' and getting himself excluded before anyone else does it for him Sad

Can you talk to his form tutor about giving him more praise and reward for good behaviour alongside the sanctions and pressure?

Being too hard on people causes disaffection, IME.

Original poster
sinceyouask · 18/12/2017 11:54

I'm coming back to this because I am pretty much losing my shit in a separate thread on here about exclusions, and am now crying at my desk and I really don't know who to talk to or what to say or what to ask or anything.

Things have not been good since the exclusion, there has been no repeat of the actual behaviour that led to it thank goodness, but everything else has got worse. Well, I guess you could say his ability to hide his bad behaviour from school has improved, or at least his understanding that anything really bad should be done out of school has improved. But he has developed a really hardened "fuck 'em" attitude to school. He is late at least twice a week (we live so close, I wake him so early, I even take his clothes and meds and breakfast to his bedroom for him every day now, he still won;t bloody get up and go on time). He doesn't do any homework at all. He apparently is quieter and less disruptive in class, but he doesn't work or learn anything. He speaks about school with such coldness and negativity (and that breaks my hard as he was so, so excited to go, I have a photo of him from the first day, he was up at 5am to get ready, he had the hugest smile, I look at it now and I just want to sob, all that promise and happiness is gone), he has no trust in or more than basic respect for any of the staff. He is appalling at home, the behaviours are awful, the norm now every night is hours of violent tantrums and destruction of items and verbal abuse. CAMHS are considering closing him and just having the GP dispense and occasionally review meds, school have agreed to refer to the EP but think it will take months. They have a plan in place now to support him but they have pretty much missed the window, he is now in the stage of superficial surface engagement only, so he goes to things, says as little as possible, leaves. He has no trust in or positive feeling towards the school at all.

Because he has been late at least once this term, he wasn't allowed to attend the trip to the pantomime. Any special event that is on the school calendar he has already said he knows he won't be allowed to go to. I congratulated him on getting some credit thing for some good behaviour, he shrugged it off, said it meant fuck all, said that his form tutor had mentioned that since he'd earned a point he had proved he could do it all the time so she expected to see him getting a point in every lesson from now on.

I'm so tired.

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Bekabeech · 14/10/2017 21:21

You could also try SEN!SOS!
It can be hard to get through, but they have a lot of experience and can advise in just this type of circumstance. They maybe able to help with legal advice if you need it.
Guilt and regret aren’t productive, although anger can be.

Squeegle · 14/10/2017 20:34

Yes, I understand - my DS is very similar, it's hard to stay calm. IPSEA have been very helpful to me, they have a phone helpline you may need to make an appointment. The issue is that the very fact that your DS does not realise the seriousness of the situation is part of the problem/ condition! And the school has a duty to support him in enabling him to recognise this. HOwever traditional punishments often don't work- he needs mentoring, time, support and understanding - including instant rewards and all the other things that help with ADHD.

Original poster
sinceyouask · 14/10/2017 20:29

I do need to do more to help his teachers understand the needs he has relating to adhd, and it may be time for a medication review. I've suspected for some time that he has a number of ODD symptoms- but then, he really can be a child without any of them at times. I'm not sure how consistently he needs to display the symptoms to be diagnosed with the disorder. I hope my colleague can help with that.

I've had a good look at the IPSEA website and I think I'll prepare for the meeting by writing down what I think he needs regarding school using the information they provide. More than anything at this moment in time I wish he'd show even the slightest appreciation of the seriousness of his current situation. He's at his most maddening right now, rude, defiant, cocky, unpleasant, totally minimising everything and sneering at the world. It's very, very difficult not to respond to it.

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Squeegle · 14/10/2017 20:01

permatired, ODD which often sits in tandem with ADHD is exactly that the lying and the blaming
However - it's important not to allow them to think this is right. My DS is similar- things are always someone else's fault. But my daughter is not like that; so I guess it is part of the condition. Quite hard to counter though, although as parents that is our job!

permatiredmum · 14/10/2017 19:47

'Even if he did the original crime impulsively as a result of his ADHD (although you said he is medicated for that), the lying and blaming others cannot be attributed to that.
BUT he is an 11 year old boy and with that (oftn) comes foolishness showing off and poor judgement.You need to give yourself a break, you are doing he best you can and you should not feel ashamed

eyebrowsonfleek · 14/10/2017 13:52

My oldest has been suspended and had CAMHS involvement at school. His siblings (quite rightly) are treated as separate individuals. The kids look alike, have had the same teachers occasionally and have an unusual surname.
I suspect my oldest has ADHD but he’s an expert at staying under the teachers’ radars and doesn’t have problems academically or socially so the school/CAMHS aren’t interested.

DamsonGin · 14/10/2017 13:35

Part of ADHD of that it's impulsive, so not intentional or thought out, however there is often remorse when someone realises the impact of what they've done. So it is but isn't their fault. That's my understanding anyway.

Squeegle · 14/10/2017 13:11

But isn't that part of ADHD- to believe that it's not their fault. That is certainly the case for my DS too. It is definitely part of the issue and that's why the help is needed for him. How to get him to take on responsibility - well you are asking for help and hopefully you will get a bit more now. Have you been in touch with IPSEA? They will be able to help you with working out the duties of the school with regard to your son.

Original poster
sinceyouask · 14/10/2017 13:06

Thank you all for these replies, I really appreciate you all taking the time.

My annoyance at people not taking me seriously until things get really bad is one thing, but I don't think for a moment that excuses my son and I believe he does deserve the exclusion. Without going into great detail he took a banned item into school and the welfare of others could have been significantly jeopardised. The MH aspect is part of it, but doesn't change that he made poor- actually, poor doesn't even come close, he made appalling- choices, and doesn't change that he lied and continued to lie when given the opportunity not to. I want him to get the MH assessment and support he needs so a)we are never in this situation again and b)his future is less bleak. I think if we all better understand what his issues are we can all do better in managing him and keeping him and others safe. I do accept that what ds1 did is his fault, very serious, worthy of a significant sanction and not excusable whatever MH and/or behavioural issues he has. I am terrified it may happen again, or something similar or worse, and I think a fuller psych assessment and more tailored support could help prevent that.

There are very few people in the country with our surname so ds2 will never not be recognised as his brother!

I suppose I feel ashamed as much because he doesn't, as anything else. For ds1 it is always, always someone else's fault. He seems genuinely to believe that he is very hard done by. He is almost two people: when he is nice he is very nice, caring and kind and funny and sociable. When he is not, he is rude and unpleasant and destructive and malicious and untruthful, and very fixed in his belief that it is not him, it's everyone ele who is to blame.

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noblegiraffe · 14/10/2017 12:54

I'm a secondary school teacher. Fixed term exclusions are fairly common and teachers who are not directly involved don't even register them, there are way too many other things demanding mental attention. The idea that in a few years time teachers will remember this incident and treat his brother any differently as a result is one that can be instantly dismissed. Given teacher turnover and the size of secondary schools, it most likely won't even be the same teachers teaching him.

I know this feels like an enormous deal to you, and of course it will, but to a school it is a tiny, little, commonplace thing - even a serious incident.

There is no need to feel ashamed, so long as you work positively with the school to help your DS and support them in their efforts, they will not think badly of you at all. You are doing everything right, and they will appreciate that.

thecatfromjapan · 14/10/2017 12:52

To be clear (which I wasn't in my post) - by 'poor education of education workers), i mean that there hasn't been a well-funded, well-time-resourced, mass training initiative to teach all workers in education about the various SEND and MH issues that may present in schools. Which, personally, I think is pretty poor, seeing the direction of travel with regard to SEND in the classroom.