Anything wrong with placing a child out of year?

An interesting thread. I was coming on to say the only disadvantage was in sporting activities but that is irrelevant.
I teach in a state comp and whilst not common we do take children out of year. The year 11s just left had a kid who should have been in y12, in my current y10 classes I have 2 students who should be in year 11.
The issue is indeed league tables, you need a school confident enough in itself to not be worried about one or two outliers ( they do stuff the data).
However having said that we have kids out of year, being working towards would be unlikely to be a good enough reason for keeping you dc back, ours have for eg been out of the country for a coulle of years, home schooled for some time etc.
We have not had any issues re integration of the out of year students so i would not be concerned on that front.

If I can offer any hope ds who was working at p scales in year two did "catch up" academically that is and achieved 5,5, 4 in year six SATs and gained 8 GCSEs A to C. That's not to say that socially and emotionally there remained deficits and gaps. IME schools endeavour greatly to enable academic attainment generally at huge cost to children's social and emotional difficulties.

I am not, in general, in favour of tutoring. However, for some children with low self-esteem, simply having the 'Ooh yes, I've done that sort of thing before' moment can give a significant boost.

For it to work, methods etc used by the tutor MUST be identical to those used in school. Communication is vital.

After school tutoring is a not-uncommon way in which children at risk of falling behind or already a bit behind are supported by their parents, and isn't the same as being moved down a year. Insist on the school communicating fully with the tutor.

Not, do gather that she's currently in KS2?

If so, then the 'plugging gaps' thing is MUCH easier. As she is in a class who remain together, with no more than a couple of teachers, times for intervention can fairly easily be 'squeezed' out of each day - assemblies, registration time, maybe the last 20 minutes of Art, or instead of changing time for Games [given time to change at break or lunch], for example. While it has to be balanced carefully for the child, it is fairly straightforward in a timetabling sense to squeeze about 30-40 minutes, in 3 short blocks, in each day

In secondary, it is harder because there is less 'unstructured time so it is difficult to remove from a lesson without her falling behind. A school I am aware of sets aside a subject block [usually used for a second language in Y8] for additional 'core subject' interventions, and then has a couple of GCSE option blocks that are used for intervention rather than the child doing an additional subject - so they will end up with 8 GCSEs not 10. Another possibility might be the very beginning of the day, possibly arriving 15 minutes early, or at the end of the day, or a lunchtime session [SEN rooms are often open at lunchtime], or taking up a registration session.

In terms of attitude to challenge, possibilities might straightforwardly include counselling. It might be targeted TA support in those specific lessons where challenge is highest. it might be small 'nurture grup' type events where 'non academic but fun' challenges can be part of every session, so that the child can try and fail in a supported group in a way that 'doesn't matter'.

My child school runs booster sessions before school to help students catch up. I meant along those lines and a tutor at home rather than out of year.

What year is your DD in? Does she have any 1-1 support?

My son was very behind, couldn't count to 10 until start of year 2 but then he revived 1-1 help and also something just clicks and by the end of the spring term he was average in Maths for his class. Reading didn't really click until he was in year 4 and this was with lots of targeted support.

Could you get your DD a tutor to fill in the gaps. I would suggest she isn't removed from her classes usual lessons for targeted support as she will never be able to catch up.

You also have to be a little careful with how 'expected level' is measured.

Schools are free to use their own data / tracking systems, and there is no requirement for them to be comnparabl;e.

The omnly exception is at the end of KS1 (Y2) and at the end of KS2 (Y6).

Even if the school has put in place tracking systems that refer to an (internally guessed) 'Expected' level for any other years (including all secondary years), then there is no validation for any of these. One school's 'Expected' could be another school's 'Greater Depth', and a third school's 'Working Towards'.

So while you might want to target reaching 'expected levels' at key points - at the end of Y6, for example, or the '5 GCSEs including English and Maths' measure, then in reality progress against these cannot be objectively monitored in the intervening years. Schools will do their best to do so, using their own systems and processes, but these are not validated, are not comparable from school to school, and may well not mean attainment of the same levels in actual externally benchmarked tests at the end of KS2 and at GCSE.

I think the question you have to think about is whether the barriers to her making accelerated progress are broadly 'academic' - e.g. gaps in her understanding, or difficulties with certain skills [an example might be handwriting or spelling] due to lack of provision earlier in her school life or a particular need such as slow processing or dyspraxia - or broadly emotional - e.g. lack of self-confidence.

Obviously the two interact - so if she has gaps in her knowledge or understanding and this leads to her rating herself as 'not clever', then filling those gaps through targeted intervention or support might well lead to increased self esteem . Equally some pupils with very low self esteem simply crumble in the face of a task and thus don't make progress in their learning, leading to gaps in their understanding.

However, which way round to start addressing it - ie interventions / targeted work to address academic weaknesses, or pastoral care / support / counselling to address self esteem issues as the priority - depends on which seems at the moment to be the predominant difficulty.

If it is gaps in her learning, then the EHCP might be focused on - or perhaps the accompanying 'what are the school doing' would state - identifying and filling these gaps in core subjects, leading to accelerated progress. If it is emotional needs, then the EHCP / school provision might focus on directly addressing the self-esteem,. looking to measure progress through improved attitude to challenge within her lessons, leading to accelerated progress. Does that make sense?

Ds attended an ASD unit in secondary school and one of the boys there was being taught out of year. He was out of year fundamentally because he had missed a chunk of schooling due to being excluded and the wait for getting a statement of SEN. Academically and socially he was better catered for in the year below and really the only issue I could see was that for a while he was physically very much bigger than his classmates particularly as he was a very tall young man anyway.
I'd say your dc would need to be faring far worse academically for them to consider repeating a year tbh ds was at p scales in y2 and still stayed within his year group.

OP, what would accelerated progress look like to you and your DD? What additional support is determined in the EHCP. Presumably, you agreed to the terms of the EHCP in draft form, before it became definitive. Is there anything in it that will address support to improve her feelings of self worth? Or any small group or individual support for accelerating progress academically.

If you are feeling that her needs would be better met in a more specialised setting, then a request to review the EHCP with a view to changing the setting, with the support of an EP and other professionals involved could be a way forward.

eyebrows,

That is exactly the kind of thing I was referring to when I said that the best chance for accelerated progress was to stay in year group. Most schools work very, very hard, in class and in lots of small pieces of extra time, to accelerate the progress of children working towards the expected level.

OP - my son made accelerated progress. He was working towards (in literacy)until end of year 5 and achieved expected progress in year 6 by the narrowest of margins.

He had extra classes during Assembly and other lessons since year 4. Each week he had small group help in spelling, handwriting, comprehension and reading. (His maths is fine) By the end of y6 he only needed the spelling and handwriting sessions. It’s a massive shame that he missed a lot of DT and Art in KS2 but his writing is one of the best in the class now and he achieved expected in SATS so hopefully he’ll be able to pass his English GCSEs in y11.

Dragging at the bottom of the mainstream class for years just hides the fact that the school cannot meet her needs at the expense of DD.
Someone has to be at the bottom of any class. Unfortunately that is a fact.

Equally, not all students will be expected standard/pass all GCSEs because all children can't be at or above average. The maths don't work. Again, this is unfortunate but part and parcel of the existence of a bell curve and a system where pass rates are limited. That doesn't stop me working for all students and supporting their needs so they have the opportunity to succeed. Some of biggest progress jumps can occur with those who were working towards for years.

I think you need to speak to the school and find out how 'working towards' your DC is because thay can mean within tolerance for the year group or way below. If your DCs needs are so different that mainstream is struggling to meet them then repeating a year with another mainstream non-SEN specialist is unlikely to have the impact you want.

It's not as simple as saying if she's working towards they aren't meeting need. Some children will always be working towards. National average for passing 5 Gcse is 65% (ish).
You need to look at the rate of progress. Children should be making expected rate of progress. They can try and close the gap but cognitively some children won't have the skills to be working at expected level. Here in the U.K. they move up year groups anyway.

You need to ask the EP to assess the cognitive skills of DD and decide from there what the expectation is and how to address this. Then agree on the support needed to bridge that gap. If she can make expected or better than expected progress wit support she can remain in year group with interventions.

cantkeepaway - I have wondered the same about America, where I believe they have to 'pass' each year to move up. I imagine a 14 year old sitting with the 5 year olds and assume this doesn't happen....

Tethers makes a good point. What if she remains working towards expectations at the end of the repeated year? Should she re-repeat?

Is it worse for her self esteem to be where she is, with her age peers, or know that she is still struggling but is the oldest?

I have always wondered, by the way, what happes to children with SEN or simply of very low ability in systems where you only move up if uyou 'pass' the year. IME, the majority of children who are working at a level below their peers in e.g. upper KS2 are those who have always made slow progress, and often have specific barriers to their learning. If they repeat a year, then it is entirely possible that they still won't achieve the required standard - and even if they do go up second time round, they are probably the most likely to repeat the next year as well. Do you get children spending their entire schooling in the primary years? Or are still in year 1 at 9? Or is it simply that special schools kick in at a lesser level of difficulty than English ones do?

You may also want to consider what strategies could be used if your daughter's progress accelerates or slows over the course of the next 12 months- would you want her to go back to her year group or continue in the year below? Or if she struggles to reach the 'expected level' at the end of the repeated year, would you want her to repeat the year again?