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Original poster

Fed up of grammar school debate!

63 replies

Rose0 · 15/09/2017 16:31

We live in an area with 2 "good" comps and 1 "satisfactory" comp. My two older children went to one of the "good" comps and did excellently and had a great time (and are going on to great things!), and my third child liked it when we took a tour, so I intend to send her there.

However, we are less than a mile out of the catchment for a grammar school, and subsequently almost all of my third child's friends are taking the 11+ with the hope of attending the grammar school. We haven't looked at the grammar school - all i know it has excellent academic results but relatively poor sporting facilities (they actually have to get a bus to a leisure centre for most PE classes and my daughter is very sporty). I haven't got an interest in sending my daughter there, and she's expressed no interest in going or taking the 11+. Ideologically I also oppose grammar schools, though of course if she had asked me to look around we would have, and if she then loved it and wanted to apply I would unquestionably support her. My main issue here is the judgement I am now facing from the mums of all her friends - since returning after summer and explaining that my daughter will not be taking the 11+ (she would most likely pass - she's one of the brightest in her year of 60) I have received bizarre remarks ("so your older daughter's going to Oxford but you don't want to send your younger daughter to a good school" being one of my personal favourites...) and been forced to repeatedly explain myself, and am being made to feel like (in the words of one of the mums!) I am "depriving her of an opportunity".

How can I get them off my back? Am I really "depriving her of an opportunity" by not actively encouraging the grammar school? Argh please tell me secondary school stops being the focus of year 6 parent conversation throughout the year...

OP posts:
juneau · 18/09/2017 11:12

I think it's always hard to go against the grain - whether that's choosing to remove your DC from a school prematurely - or opting for a secondary choice that is less popular. Ultimately, it IS your choice and as long as you are secure in it I would just smile and shrug. It's none of their damn business where you send your DC is it?

We're facing the secondary decision next year. My DC's school has a senior school and typically the number of DC leaving at the end of primary is tiny - only 5 or 6 this year! Having looked around the senior school though we don't feel that it would be right for our older DS, who is not only bright, but very sporty. We're looking at another school that will cater better to his strengths, but we're having to be very secret squirrel about it, simply because it is already very clear that most of his friends will be staying on and most of them aren't even looking at any other schools. I know that when our decision becomes known (provided he gets in!), we'll face lots of defensive comments. I'm not looking forward to it Sad.

Hayesking · 18/09/2017 10:54

DSDizzy is a confident boy who will do well anywhere but my little flower more sensitive and wouldn't cope' I have heard this several times!! It really pisses me off!

DizzyDandelion · 18/09/2017 09:41

I have actually had said to my face that I am sacrificing my child by sending him to more local, less 'leafy', high PP comprehensive.
Not a grammar school area but a comp near by that is all but in name...
My choice seems to make people uncomfortable. The main line I get is that 'DSDizzy is a confident boy who will do well anywhere but my little flower more sensitive and wouldn't cope'... Mmmmm....
Tosh....

troutsprout · 18/09/2017 09:34

I had the same when I sent Dd to the local comp. Year 6 parents were a scramble of elbows all trying to avoid the local comp which the primary was a feeder for.
Dd is a bright thing and some parents were absolutely incredulous ( almost angry) One parent stopped me and said "Why are you sending your Dd THERE?!! She is very clever! She could get good results! You should try for x school!"

It was like I didn't love her or something. You are right OP.. it is damn rude!

I tried pointing out that her elder brother had gone there /that it had done well by him /he made amazing progress /that we liked the ethos etc.. but it didn't let up for the entire year.
I never had it with her elder brother (who struggled much more academically at primary school) so I wonder if that has a lot to do with it.

I guess people want security in their choice and to do that they have to brand other choices as bad as reassurance that their choice is good.
Someone who mucks up their little order makes them nervous and annoyed.

Original poster
Rose0 · 18/09/2017 08:10

Teddygirlonce I imagine my daughter too would suffer that way - she's naturally very bright and loves English and maths, but her talents lie mainly in PE and music - she doesn't enjoy science/geography/RE (though she loves history) and so doesn't really work hard in those classes. The grammar school in question makes children do 13+ GCSEs which just seems nuts to me - my older two did 9 and 10 respectively and achieved clean sweeps of As and As (or "9s" in the case of my son!), but I think if they'd had an extra 3 or 4 subjects on their plate there'd have been less As and more Bs. Still excellent, but not quite the grades DD needed to get into the unis of her choice, and the ones DS is now considering!

Bintang you'd hope so but as she's the first ever from their school to go (and only the second to apply - the first didn't even get an interview) they've tried to tell me that "surely" school had nothing to do with it (actually - the school were fab. Probably because she was the only one they were able to invest time into giving her interview practise, really helping her choose submitted essays and practise for the admissions test. She also actually went to the grammar school to join in with their interview practise because about 10 were applying!)

IroningMountain oh don't get me started on tutoring. One of the girls here has been being tutored twice a week since year 3. Year 3! I think it's gone up to 3 times a week this year. Just unnecessary.

Zadig such a shame I don't share the sentiment and want to spend more time with all of them Grin
And the "middle class" comment wasn't actually about grammar schools in general - it was about this specific school, because it's in a middle class area and obviously creams off the kids who can afford to travel far from out of the area (you get free bus passes etc if you go to a school in the catchment area here). Their FSM percent is something like 5% and their ethnic diversity is similar. Two of my eldest DD's best friends went and one left in year 9 and one in year 11 (she was the only mixed African-English person in the whole school of 800 - and we live in a very diverse city about 6 miles away with a white British population of only just over 50%), and both have described the school as "posh" and found it very hard to fit in. There obviously were ordinary working class kids there, but they were clearly in a minority and poorly under-represented - hence why I described the school as such. The girls did make many good friends, but found themselves embarrassed to invite friends to their home when many of their friends lived in huge detached houses with gates, driveways, and a maze in the garden (I'm not joking!). I think what's important is that there's a good distribution of social classes and ethnicities across the school, and I don't think that's possible in this town, and made even less likely by the super selective nature of the school. It leaves some kids feeling outnumbered, and actually creates quite a bubble and lack of awareness of other cultures and classes. I'm not in any way a critic of the middle class, I am just a critic of a school that seems to consist primarily of children from one class and ethnicity, as I don't believe that's healthy - it's not the real world!

SecondaryQuandary well my DS has just started sixth form there and the Ofsted rating has actually just improved (it was previously rated 3 but a year ago was inspected as a 2), with the report sounding very positive. DD looked around at the open day last year as I was taking the neighbour's daughter who's just started in year 7 (and absolutely loves it! Though she's a very enthusiastic child so would probably love anywhere...) and we were both impressed. We're going to the open day of one of the other schools we're in the catchment for because it's got a sports specialism and got a new building the year after DD1 looked around, so we'll see what that's like (we've heard good things about the school too). I don't think the grammar school is much more popular as such - I think there's still an even split across the same four schools, it's just that the parents of the girls DD2 interacts with appear to be the die hard grammar supporters. Lucky me.

OP posts:
SecondaryQuandary · 17/09/2017 15:23

a cock waving contest for pushy parents who think their child is an extension of themselves.

That is the BEST quote I've ever seen in relation to the 11+ GrinGrinGrin

The only thing I'd check is that the comp is still as good as it was when your eldest was there. I have a friend whose eldest DS went to a SS, and at the time he was there it was excellent. When she looked into it for her youngest DS (he's 7 years younger ) it had a horrific reputation for pastoral care etc.

I'd query why so many these days are interested in the grammar if the comp is so good.

Zadig · 17/09/2017 12:39

If this is your third child OP, I don't know why you let it bother you tbh. Just tell people that you want all your children to have the same school experience. They'll understand that you have a relationship with staff at the school where two of your DC went - "better the devil you know" as they say!

Take it as a compliment - maybe these mums and their daughters really like you and your DD and would like you to move onto secondary together. No big deal.

Also, if you don't mind me saying, do be careful of projecting about "middle class" children etc, or the "type" you perceive go to the grammar. Just as these mums have no experience of the school you chose for your DC, you have no experience if the grammar to enable you to make judgements about it. Kids are kids and there are all types in every school.

IroningMountain · 17/09/2017 12:21

Funny we had the opposite. Grilling as to why we were trying for grammars and the local comp wasn't good enough. Funny as many of those were ferrying their kids to better comps out of catchment.

Re tutoring. 3 kids at grammar,one with SEN. Absolutely no need to tutor in anything at grammar. Work not onerous at all. My dc always pity those kids doing umpteen extra curricular activities such as gymnastics,swimming etc. Personally I wonder how parents afford all those activities,they cost ££££££.

Interestingly round here most of the tutoring I see as regards GCSE isn't by those kids in grammars but at the comps. The double standards re pushing kids through exams really comes into play a couple of years before GCSE.

bullyingadvice2017 · 17/09/2017 11:43

I am getting my popcorn ready for when the grammar school gives places out. Usually a handful of kids from our school go there... 22 are sitting the exam. And most of them have been told that's where they WILL be going and that they are not even going to any other open days.

Hilarious as most of them are being tutored to within an inch of their life and actually no one knows where they will be going.

Parents trying to live through their children, who they have passed on their unwarranted sense of self importance to. Also setting them up to feel thick as pigshit either when they don't get in or in three years time when mummy and daddy cannot afford to tutor right through GCSEs.

At present dds friends are envious of her as she hasn't been made to pack in all extra things (swimming, guides, gymnastics etc) They all have to accommodate the extra exam and tutor time!

Bintang · 17/09/2017 09:34

Surely just saying, yes, comp educated dd1 is off to Oxford next week, followed by a tinkly little laugh would be enough.

Teddygirlonce · 17/09/2017 09:20

Rose0 stick to your guns! There is every chance your DD will do better at her comp than at a grammar school anyway!

I've had a bit of a Damascene revelation about grammar schools, based on our experience with DC1. His super-selective didn't do the best by him (agreed he was quite lazy until Year 11). I reckon he has done less well than he would have done at a comprehensive. I think he coasted (think pupils are expected to be self-direct learners from the off) and was really rather left by the wayside. Grammars are really most interested in the ones who are very clever. I feel sure with the benefit of hindsight that he would have been pushed and nurtured better at a comprehensive (and probably would have achieved better GCSE results - his weren't bad but not as good as they should have been).

From my own experience (I went to one two with my siblings one of whom was very high achieving and the other not so much so) and DS's, my view is that grammar schools (certainly the super-selectives) invest in the cleverest but if you're struggling you are rather left by the wayside. DSib2 (the less academic one) didn't apply to uni, being of a more artistic than academic persuasion. It was only on the last day in the U6 that they were asked what their post school plans were - the school really wasn't bothered with the pupils who wouldn't uphold their status!

Also, you've got a lot more experience of the education system with two older DCs - most likely these 'helpful' friends/parents have no real idea what they're talking about.

Wishing your DC3 all the best for the future.

Original poster
Rose0 · 16/09/2017 22:15

Sadly almost all of the mums in question (bar 2 - and there are 6 constantly bringing it up! 6! It's ridiculous!) have younger children either in my youngest's year or the year above/below her so there's a few more years to put up with them - hence why I really don't want to argue with them on the matter! I could easily question some of their decisions (I don't think one of the girls is likely to pass the test as it is super selective and the girl strikes me as quite insecure, meaning she may take it quite hard) but I would never dream of doing so. I just find it so rude of them.

And Greenbucket I definitely wouldn't worry about that. Private school often provided a different experience, but many children thrive in state school (as my oldest two have - academically, socially, and in terms of extra curricular activities) and I'm sure your daughter is capable of the same Smile
Tinty I'm glad it turns out you made the right decision - and you're absolutely right, I don't think these are the girls she'll stay friends with in the long term. I'd say her long term friends are family friends, her friends from the other class (60 children in a year) and year below who she does running and athetics in school with, and her friends from dance and triathlon - and she'll actually end up going to school with more of them at the comp than she would at the grammar, and will still see many them just as much regardless! Most of the girls she's befriended in her class, and subsequently the mothers I end up interacting with, seem more out of convenience (her class has just 8 girls and 21 boys so the girls call themselves the "girl gang"!).

I'm confident in the decision we've made, mostly just fed up with their insistence that I'm somehow doing my daughter a disservice! I think they need to accept that the grammar school option is not always superior (or fair) - for a sporty child this one certainly isn't.

OP posts:
Tinty · 16/09/2017 11:50

Well I think the only thing to think is; if they are all taking the 11 + and possibly most of them will be going to grammar at least you wont have to spend the next 7 years seeing their parents at school events!

We actually had it the other way around. I live in the catchment of an outstanding comp. The primary is a feeder so my daughter spent the whole of primary attending events at the comp with the other 60 DC in her year.

But I sent her to the SS Grammar, so we had the whole of year 6 with mums saying to me why are you sending her there, when the comp is so good. My daughter spent year 6 with the children in her class not being particularly nice to her because she isn't going to the same secondary as them.

She absolutely loves her school, she has many more like minded friends than in primary. Her two best friends from primary are her friends still and we have seen them lots in the summer hols. She couldn't wait to get back to school in year 8. This is what I had hoped for her. As many people say, you have to choose the school that you think will best suit your child.

And ignore all the others that say you should send them to Grammar because everyone else is going or to Comp because everyone else is going. Choose what you think will suit your child. By the way my DS now 20 went to the comp because that was what suited him. I didn't even do the 11 + with him because it wouldn't have been the right place for him

Greenbucket · 16/09/2017 11:03

I did admit to myself that I was worried that I was letting her down in some way, which is why it got to me. Time will tell! So far so good!

MaisyPops · 16/09/2017 11:00

That's what it sounds like rose.

Just remember the parents who are confident in their decision to go private will get on with it, thr ones who are happy putting their child through 11+ will get on with it and those who are happy with thr comp will get on with it.

The types of people who spend ages going on at length about how intelligent yheir children are etc are probably just deeply insecure or excessively image conscious. (In my head they are the same types of parents who complains that their child is in set 2 when set 1 & 2 both have a mix of A/A* students. Obviously, thr number on thr timetable makes a huge difference to their egos)

Original poster
Rose0 · 16/09/2017 10:59

Greenbucket I'm glad it's worked out fine for you. You're right though - the comments just make me miserable. I don't want to be rude and tell them sharply to mind their own business (I've tried wishy washy "at the end of the day it's her/our decision") but at the same time I so do...

OP posts:
Original poster
Rose0 · 16/09/2017 10:55

a cock waving contest for pushy parents who think their child is an extension of themselves.

Is absolutely what I'm faced with. Grr. I will just have to continue to grit my teeth and hope to not relive it all again when DD3 is in year 6 (I've honestly not faced this before - with the older two children there was a fairly even split across the four schools and no one tried to push their opinion on one another!)

OP posts:
Greenbucket · 16/09/2017 10:52

I had this in year 6 as my others went to local indie school but we've run out of money so dd3 has just started at local state. I had all kinds of comments and tbh it made me feel a bit miserable. 2 weeks in and she's loving the state school, has a nice bunch of friends and is much more chatty and confident.

hertsandessex · 16/09/2017 10:50

Year 6 is a nightmare - the climax of years of primary school chatting, snobbery, rivalry, superiority/inferiority complexes coming to a head. Been through it several times and each time different problems. Basically just got to smile and ignore it and look forward to year 7 when all that crap mostly disappears.

Trampire · 16/09/2017 09:29

OP, your dd sounds really rounded. The fact that she has friends in other sports clubs and knows what she's looking for in school facilities speaks volumes. It will stand her a good stead.

I've found (as I'm sure you did) that children don't always keep their Primary friends fur long in Secondary. My dd was lucky as she started on her own - while that was tough at first, she witnessed huge fallouts and dramas in others from old Primary friendships shifting at around March/April in Y7. She managed to pretty much bypass all that!

It's silly to choose a school based on existing friendships. I know you're not doing this but plenty of people do. I had this in spades too (and currently with ds)....."but all his friends are going somewhere else. It's so cruel" Hmm

CauliflowerSqueeze · 16/09/2017 09:22

Your main worry then is that your daughter will feel she's missed out - the comments that the other parents are making are annoying but really just needling your worry.

MaisyPops · 16/09/2017 08:57

Don't worry OP. You make the best decision with your children.

Just like some parents will choose private and get on with that choice and others will choose grammar and get on with making their choices.

Sadly, some parents don't seem to their precious dahling could possibly thrive in a comprehensive so feel the need to inform the world that their child is 'too academic' for a comp. Take the endless grammar school/11+ chat for what it is: a cock waving contest for pushy parents who think their child is an extension of themselves.

Original poster
Rose0 · 16/09/2017 08:07

BurnTheBlackSuit We have definitely discussed it but you're right that I should keep doing so - I've told her that most of her friends plan on taking the test and therefore hopefully going to the grammar (and I have a feeling that some of the parents might pay for the private school 10 miles away if they don't pass!) but she has definitely turned her nose up at the sports facilities - which I think she's more bothered about than the academics. I'll definitely bring it up again thought, just to make sure she's certain. A lot of her friends from clubs outside of school and friends from the other class/after school clubs are going to the school, so I think she's actually quite looking forward to that (at the moment!)

OP posts:
BurnTheBlackSuit · 15/09/2017 22:35

I am confident we're making the right choice - just don't want it to come to March/July/September and her to feel left out or like she's missing out because she's not going.

Have you had this conversation with your daughter now? I think you said she doesn't want to sit 11+/ go to the Grammar. Does she understand that some/most of her friends are likely to go there? She understands why the comp is better for her/ agrees it is? Hopefully discussing it all now will stop disappointment later on. You want her to understand she had a choice and the reasons why the choice was the right one for her. And also make sure she doesn't have to lose her friends because they are at a different school.

Original poster
Rose0 · 15/09/2017 22:12

Trampfire don't worry about ranting on - I could and indeed have ranted about this for hours. It's nice to hear that going against the grain worked for you and your daughter - your reasons are all totally valid. As are, I like to think, mine, as well as those of the other mums. Every child is different. The grammar is probably great for some, but the poor sports facilities and lack of social variety, as well as the fact I just don't see it as a fair way to work the system, all mean I don't think it's right for my daughter, and as she's expressed no interest I see no need to explore it!

Just wish the other mums were more accepting and would leave us be 😡

OP posts: