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Original poster

Fed up of grammar school debate!

63 replies

Rose0 · 15/09/2017 16:31

We live in an area with 2 "good" comps and 1 "satisfactory" comp. My two older children went to one of the "good" comps and did excellently and had a great time (and are going on to great things!), and my third child liked it when we took a tour, so I intend to send her there.

However, we are less than a mile out of the catchment for a grammar school, and subsequently almost all of my third child's friends are taking the 11+ with the hope of attending the grammar school. We haven't looked at the grammar school - all i know it has excellent academic results but relatively poor sporting facilities (they actually have to get a bus to a leisure centre for most PE classes and my daughter is very sporty). I haven't got an interest in sending my daughter there, and she's expressed no interest in going or taking the 11+. Ideologically I also oppose grammar schools, though of course if she had asked me to look around we would have, and if she then loved it and wanted to apply I would unquestionably support her. My main issue here is the judgement I am now facing from the mums of all her friends - since returning after summer and explaining that my daughter will not be taking the 11+ (she would most likely pass - she's one of the brightest in her year of 60) I have received bizarre remarks ("so your older daughter's going to Oxford but you don't want to send your younger daughter to a good school" being one of my personal favourites...) and been forced to repeatedly explain myself, and am being made to feel like (in the words of one of the mums!) I am "depriving her of an opportunity".

How can I get them off my back? Am I really "depriving her of an opportunity" by not actively encouraging the grammar school? Argh please tell me secondary school stops being the focus of year 6 parent conversation throughout the year...

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Original poster
Rose0 · 24/09/2017 14:03

whiteroseredrose my first was like that - DD1 had a group of about 8 friends who between them went to 6 different schools, then DS1's was easy because he and all 5 of his best friends just went to the same school. For DD2 it's the case that in a group of 8 friends 7 are trying for the grammar school and 6 of these parents are giving me grief over it. I don't imagine she'll keep in touch with many of them - unlike DD1 and DS, who are both still very close to primary school friends, possibly made easier by the way the schools split/ the fact that DS has literally been friends with the same group of boys for his entire life.

Ttbb my point exactly! They make out that I've just searched for the worst possible school to send DD2!

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Ttbb · 23/09/2017 17:11

It's not like they are sending their kids to Eton-what right so they have to judge you for your choice of school?

whiteroseredrose · 23/09/2017 17:07

Sorry Rose ! It's not great and made me doubt the system somewhat.

Ours was complicated because DC were going to lots of schools. DD's friendship group went to 5 different schools in the end, three different Grammars, one Sec Mod and one Private.

Some of them have kept in touch (except DD who lives in the moment like me).

When we have caught up every one of them is happy with their school so it seems to have worked out in the end.

Original poster
Rose0 · 23/09/2017 07:34

whiteroseredrose argh! This was so much easier with the first two children - nothing like that happened. I hope DD2 doesn't start getting left out if all her friends do get in, but these girls definitely have the potential to be mean (unlike DD1 and DS's friends).

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whiteroseredrose · 22/09/2017 22:51

Hopefully when the 11+ results come out the conversations will tail off... although I imagine they'll just ramp up from the parents of the kids who pass..

From my experience that's when the segregation starts. Friendship groups change as the DC congregate with those going to the same school.

Original poster
Rose0 · 22/09/2017 16:48

pizzaparty11 that's amazing! I don't think any school around here turns over that much success. I just checked Wikipedia and the grammar school has four "notable" alumni (an opera singer, a lib dem MP, a president of the Oxford Union and a fantasy writer - none of whom I've heard of but all pretty impressive!) but nothing like what you're describing happens to anyone around here reallu. I know in my DD's year at her school there was a girl who's a world class diver and a boy who wrote a piece for the BBC proms and is off to Guildhall with a scholarship but that's as exciting as we've got from any of the schools in this area that I know of!

I'm not saying all grammar schools have poor sports facilities and opportunities but this one certainly does. They end up only having 30 minute PE lessons because it takes 20 minutes to change and get to the leisure centre and 20 minutes to change and get back from the leisure centre. Not many girls do GCSE or A level PE as they're discouraged from doing so (in favour of more academic options - my DCs had friends who went there and they very much pushed science and maths-based options) and the only extra curricular sports offered are football, netball, and cross country. Not a great selection to say the least - especially not when compared with the comps around here that offer those plus swimming, badminton, athletics, basketball, rugby. The school also has poor drama and music departments (not that that'd bother DD2 but I'm trying to emphasise how academic focused it is!) - in the 5 years DD1's friend stayed there they put on 1 performance (the local comp does a show in March each year and then a showcase at Christmas and summer) and they don't have an orchestra or a concert band or string group or wind group or choir or chamber choir - yet all of these are on offer at the school DD1 attended and DS1 is still at.

Some grammar schools offer a rounded education - and a rounded social experience. This one does not.

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pizzaparty11 · 22/09/2017 15:59

I am not sure why you thionk the grammar school will be less good for sport? The facilities at the lesure centre will surely be excellent and IME GS's top the leagues in sport and music as well as academics.Im my DS'1s year alone (of 100 kids) there was a boy who at 17 yrs old who was commissioned to design the CD cover for a mainstream world famoussinger r.A 16/17 yo band who broke the American music scene and appeared o Letterman and a gold medal winning Olympian.
Grammar schools attract and nurture kids who succeed in all areas

Original poster
Rose0 · 20/09/2017 17:28

(The commute is 45 minutes either way - I don't know if it's being read that way but that was the intention!) I suppose my point is that for us it's a lot of extra effort (and money re travel - I'm not actually sure we could afford it with DD1 off to university this year!) for not a lot of extra gain. I am confident DD2 will do well at the local comp and most likely also be significantly happier and more well rounded (not purely because the school is the grammar school, but because of how the school is in general re poor sports facilities and social situation). For some children it's worth it and will make a difference, for my DD it's not.

Hopefully when the 11+ results come out the conversations will tail off... although I imagine they'll just ramp up from the parents of the kids who pass..

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Badbadbunny · 20/09/2017 09:47

I agree an 90 mins travel is definitely not worth it - at all. It's so tiring and she could get her homework done in that time!

My son does a 90 minute journey and it's absolutely fine. Because the school has good discipline and motivated kids, they have very little homework anyway, as there's little classroom disruption. Most of the homework is "finish off the worksheet" or "finish off chapter 10", but usually he's already finished it in class. Usually the only "homework" he does are long term projects spanning several weeks or revision for tests -some days, he'll have none at all. So for him and his school, the commute doesn't really affect homework.

Badbadbunny · 20/09/2017 09:44

Guess what. They're all in the comprehensives, and the parents who were very quiet and never said anything about secondary have sent their kids to the private schools.

Similar to the old "silent majority" saying and similar to election opinion polls where they have to adjust the results for the effect of the "quiet" people - those who either give no opinion, tell the pollster what they think they want to hear, or just don't engage with them in the first place.

I just "don't get" all this angst at the school gate. I used to stand and wait patiently, and nod & say hello to other parents, but never got too friendly with the other parents except the very few that my son was very friendly with (due to visiting each others' houses for play etc). But "some" parents just had to open the flood gates and try to make everyone within sight their new best friend - you know, the ones, where they've told you their entire life history the first time you meet them.

At our school, 9 kids out of 30 went to the grammar. 5 or 6 of those were "surprises" as parents generally didn't know they were going for it. Whereas, about another 5-10 of the gobby parents were virtually announcing it via loudspeakers that their "jimmy" was sitting the 11+ and they were the ones who were suddenly silent come results day.

It's always the gobby ones in all walks of life.

Zadig · 19/09/2017 20:39

I agree an 90 mins travel is definitely not worth it - at all. It's so tiring and she could get her homework done in that time!

Original poster
Rose0 · 19/09/2017 19:50

And regarding your second post Zadig - that sounds like actual hell. Makes me grateful we just have the one grammar school around here and that I've only faced the issue with DD2's circle of friends' parents so far.

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Original poster
Rose0 · 19/09/2017 19:49

Zadig the grammar school itself is outside of the city. We fall in an odd area on the edge of the city, where in one direction is the (quite rough, not at all affluent) city centre and in the other direction are a series of very middle class towns and lots of countryside in which people own huge expanses of land. The grammar school is in one of the most affluent small towns in question, which has a huge catchment due to the rural nature of its surrounding area. We're a few miles out the catchment area, but people get in from here as it's super selective.
The city we are on the edge of has a large Pakistani population, and quite a sizeable Bangladeshi population too. There is a town between where we are and the grammar school's town that is also dominated by people of Pakistani and Bangladeshi origin, but they mostly go to the schools in their town of the ones in the city - schools end up being either very mixed, or very dominated by one race or religion. Taken from the grammar school's last ofsted "over 92%" of the population are white British, and from their gov.uk stats just 5% of pupils come from a disadvantaged background. And that is what the children at that school have found - very little diversity. Partly because it's a grammar and partly because it's in such a white middle class area, meaning poorer parents and Asian parents aren't always keen to send their children there - particularly when there are a number of good comps filled with working class or Muslim children.

I do understand why grammar school would be beneficial to some, but it doesn't seem to cross the minds of some parents that it's not best for everyone. I also think that as a result of her sister going to Oxford and getting offers from other top redbrick universities DD2 will not see it as an unrealistic aspiration (but also won't feel pushed in that direction if she decides academics aren't for her, unlike what seems to happen in this grammar school). That obviously isn't the case for all parents, but I am lucky enough for it be so. Therefore why waste an extra 90 minutes of her day (not to mention £100s on train passes) travelling to and from a school with poor sports facilities, bullying issues, and poor pastoral support when there's a perfectly adequate school just down the road? I see why it's a sensible choice for some but it absolutely isn't for me - and I wish the other parents would leave me to conclude that in peace! It's great that their daughters are trying for the grammar school, and equally great that mine has found somewhere she will be happy!!

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Zadig · 19/09/2017 17:43

Trout - the Independent Schools in London usually have a maths paper and an English paper, then interview the successful candidates. Sometimes there is a VR / NVR paper too, although many schools are abandoning this now as a selection measure, believing that it gives more of an indication of tutoring, rather than ability Grin. They incorporate reasoning into the maths and English papers instead, in a way that candidates can't really prepare for.

At my DC's prep they do practise maths and English papers (comprehension and short-story writing) from mid-year 5, every week, plus more for homework. They also do interview "mocks" because the interview is very important too. You may get 1,500 children applying for 150 places. The school may interview 400, so still no guarantee of a place, even if you get to interview stage. You need to have some other "selling" factor at this stage e.g. musical, sporting or whatever ability and demonstrate that you are the "right" personality and fit for the school Confused I would say most children are tutored too (whether the parents admit it or not). DS had about a year's tutoring in English at £50 per hour (this was 4 years ago), but not in maths as his prep had this covered.

Some schools like St Paul's, Kings College Wimbledon or Latymer Upper have entry at 7+ and 8+ as well, so it often happens that a child may have already tried for the schools twice (but been unsuccessful) by the time he reaches 11 plus! So years of tutoring and prep from age 6!! There is a whole thriving industry around access to these schools which plays on parents insecurity and over-ambition. It's a nightmare and a complete treadmill frankly.

For a state grammar like Tiffin in Kingston thousands will apply for maybe 100 places. There is far more emphasis on VR and NVR ( I think they use this as a first round "screening" and then invite a proportion back to sit the maths and English papers). Yes there is a huge industry around the specific kind of tutoring for these grammars and I think they start about 2 years prior to the exams. The "best" tutors are booked well in advance and it's all very "cloak and dagger". We didn't do any state grammars because it's a slightly different exam process to the indie sector, but I know some who did and it's fiercely competitive. So fun fun fun all the way!

troutsprout · 19/09/2017 16:23

Is this private tutoring Zadig ? Do kids really do years of it? If so then I'd imagine this also requires a fair amount of spare cash. It must add up to a hell of a lot.
There is no way we ( or most people I know) could have afforded years worth of private tutoring

Zadig · 19/09/2017 15:10

Rose - it's interesting that you say the grammar school near you is 95% White British, even though you are in a city. Where do you live? In London its absolutely nothing like that at all. Also people tutor for years for the grammars in order to avoid private school fees. The grammars are by no means full of wealthy families and are very diverse.

If you think the hype around the grammar system is ridiculous - you should try the independent sector in South-West London. Children need to sit 4 or 5 exams for individual schools - often with a 1 in 15 chance of a place. Don't even get me started on all the extra-curricular hype, the interviews and the prep for that. It's all anyone talks about from year 4 onwards Grin. That's if they didn't already try their luck at 7+ or 8+ which is even more fun. I'm about to go into this process third time around and I'm over it already.

It may be that your friends are going into the 11 plus first-time around with their eldest DC. This makes a difference to enthusiasm / paranoia levels etc. By the third child they'll be bored to the back teeth.

To be fair, not all children are highly-self motivated like your daughter. Many bright but slightly lazy / easily influenced children might well benefit from the extra "push" of a more academic school. At my DS' school, about 50 go to Oxbridge every year, while an equal number go to US Ivy League or medical schools, etc which are even more competitive. The fact that this is seen as totally doable and almost "normal" does make a huge difference. For instance, I achieved top grades at a state school and not one person (inc parents) ever suggested trying for Oxbridge.

The 11 plus can bring out the worst in people, but they just want what they think is best for their kids. If I were you I wouldn't worry about it at all.

Original poster
Rose0 · 19/09/2017 07:49

TheNext oh how interesting! (And annoying for you...) that makes total sense though, that's an incredibly trek (and of course for social events you'd have to become the personal taxi driver which would be great fun...).
Our two very strict schools nearby both have excellent results and ofsted reports so parents are still desperate to get their kids in. Quite a few of the older children from DD's dance and triathlon go there but none of them seem to enjoy or recommend it. Not a good sign.

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TheNext · 18/09/2017 23:00

I'm in a village 3 miles from the leafy side of a country town, and the schools in the town nearest to us have tiny catchments. Our catchment school is 15 miles away, but in the 15 mile radius we have a couple more towns, one quite big. The catchment school isn't bad, it's just a hour on the bus or half an hour in the car, and in the opposite direction from most places we go. We're not set on the grammars but it'd be nice to have the option of an easier journey and a school that feels more local. I feel your pain re the strict schools - we have an academy which has been in special measures ever since the fish crawled out of the ocean (5th closest but massively undersubscribed) which keeps on bringing in new stricter heads who make the uniform ever more preposterous and the rules more prison like. The kids aren't getting any more GCSEs though!

Original poster
Rose0 · 18/09/2017 22:28

PurpleMeddler one parent is saying that if their DD fails the 11+ she can go to one of the two private schools (one has a test which I think the girl has been entered for but it's much easier than the grammar test) about 10-15 miles away (20 minute+ train ride or hour long bus!). I'm not sure whether this'll materialise so I'll be curious to see if she does fail...

TheNext - 21 schools! You must be in London or another huge city surely? The talk is just incessant though isn't it. The three we're in catchment for are 3/5 nearest. One is a catholic school and one is the second nearest but very over subscribed so with a tiny catchment, and it only started when DS was going into year 7 (they've just had their first set of GCSE results) so we didn't consider it for him or DD1. Now we wouldn't because though it's outstanding and there's excellent progress made (and very high results - 75% 5 A*-C GCSEs) they're discipline crazy! (only black coats allowed, certain hair styles/colour of hair bobble/not allowed to eat with friends due to a "family dining" system/ a whole day at the beginning of term dedicated to going over the rules etc. All sounds wayyy to intense for my liking. School should be at least a little bit fun!)

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TheNext · 18/09/2017 20:36

My dc go to a small rural school and the kids often all go to different schools as the primary catchment contains the corners of 4 secondary school catchment areas, and we're in a partially selective county. So most people know that the other parents will make different choices and it's all okay.

It's a bit different about grammar/non-grammar though: while it's fine at school (dc in a year group of 8 kids so we all know each other very well), the pressure from other parents living nearby does my head in. Is ds doing the test? Is he finding it hard? Are you tutoring him? Do many get in from his school? And so on. Thankfully the test is out of the way now (and I found it a fairly hideous experience) but I wish we were in a non-selective area as even though I tried to shield ds from the pressure, he doesn't live in a bubble. And the reason we're applying for grammars? Our catchment comp is fine - nice and welcoming, average results - but there are 21 schools closer to our house, and if ds is facing an hour on the school bus we may as well look as options which don't involve so much travel.

Purplemeddler · 18/09/2017 18:53

Just remember the parents who are confident in their decision to go private will get on with it, thr ones who are happy putting their child through 11+ will get on with it and those who are happy with thr comp will get on with it

Totally. I'm not in a grammar school area and we have two very good comprehensives in our town (good in that they do well in the league tables) and most people in the area do keep faith with the state system and send their kids to either of the the two schools.

But growing up it was interesting that a few parents boasted about how their kids would go to private school when they got to 11.

Guess what. They're all in the comprehensives, and the parents who were very quiet and never said anything about secondary have sent their kids to the private schools.

As for friends, I think there are advantages to going to a secondary where you don't take the "baggage" from primary with you. I only knew one person at my secondary school. My son knew about half the people at his secondary. I think there are disadvantages of both, but you soon make friends if you didn't know anyone.

Original poster
Rose0 · 18/09/2017 17:42

troutsprout that's almost exactly what I've had - "but DD2 could easily pass the 11+!", as though doubt in her passing is the only possible reason I could not be forcing her to do it.

Lik Dizzy i've also had a lot of "oh well I suppose she's resilient" "adaptable" "easygoing" "confident", as though those things are necessary traits to get through comprehensive school Hmm
DD3 is definitely the least academic of my four (although she's only 7 (8 in 8 days) so that could change) so it'll be interesting to see if that does affect reactions.

it made me question myself is exactly how I feel Trampire. I can't think of many reasons why I should question the decision, but at the same time when all you've got are parents yapping on about how I'm going to regret it and my daughter will suffer as a result it's hard to maintain resolve.

BeyondThePage that's interesting - almost the inversion of our case! DD doesn't seem bothered about where her school friends are going which surprised me a little. I thought she might put up more of a case for the grammar school but she says she doesn't even want to look around (possibly because it would mean missing swimming or dance...) I luckily don't think I'll regret it - I agonised over this with DD1, especially as she was very vulnerable at the time, and it turns out the friends who did go there moved to her school later and found there were a lot of mental health issues (I think four girls and a boy in their year of 128 have all been hospitalised Sad), and now there's apparently a lot of cyber bullying. It doesn't sound like a very nice social atmosphere, people are just drawn to the outstanding academics, smaller class sizes and 10+ Oxbridge candidates per year. My attitude has always been that I don't mind what my childrens' academic outcomes are as long as they're happy with them, and the comp has totally nurtured that in my older two children. They're both proud of their achievements and have grown into confident young people - many children we know at the grammar with similar results (or better seeing as they take 13+!) worry incessantly about the odd "A" or "B" grade and don't get the same sense of achievement from As and A*s - it's just routine there.

I suppose the fact that my older two have got so much out of the school makes me a big supporter, but I understand why it might not be for everyone (for example high achievers who really need to be pushed. My two worked without any push.) and I think DD2 is motivated to do well because she wants to live up to the success of DD1 and DS1 - she's seen them work their socks off and get good results and I think she wants the same. Maybe if all this wasn't the case I would consider the grammar, but it seems like a waste of money and time to me (she'd have to pay for a train in!).

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BeyondThePage · 18/09/2017 14:01

As someone who has been through all that and coming out the other side....

I did not insist DD (now16) do the grammar test, she desperately wanted to go to the comp with her friends - of course 3 months in and the friendship groups all changed.

She did well at her GCSEs - could have done better, but I was very proud of her results.

Visited many 6th forms and is now going to a grammar 6th - and berated me last week for not making her do the 6th form test as she NOW feels she should have done it since the school's ethos is so much better for those who want to excel. I should have stepped up and pushed, but hopefully no damage was done.

Trampire · 18/09/2017 11:32

Sorry first paragraph is a quote and was supposed to be in bold

Trampire · 18/09/2017 11:32

I guess people want security in their choice and to do that they have to brand other choices as bad as reassurance that their choice is good.
Someone who mucks up their little order makes them nervous and annoyed.*

I this is it, totally. Like I said earlier, I had it from the other direction - people thinking I was a snob for even looking at a different school. I know it makes people uneasy, because every single time someone had an (unvited) dig at my chosen school it made me question myself!

It's hard to be secret about it. I'm just about to ask for a morning off so ds can go to an open morning. Seeing as all the other pupils (as far as I know) only look around the local comp on an open evening, it will be met with lots of confused and slightly annoyed faces at the school office. The school office is run mainly by women who have children at the primary school. The main secretary's dc is in Y6 too and she is the school Queen Bee. Not a good mix.