High school open eves.... ofsted.... how to choose high school for DD?

Inspecting Safeguarding in Early Years, Educational and Skills settings is the document Ofsted Inspectors use for inspecting safeguarding in schools. There is a paragraph that relates to the physical safety of the children within the school and security of the buildings but the overwhelming emphasis is on what the school does in cases of abuse. It would be great if we could actually read the Ofsted reports where schools have been failed solely because of a dilapidated fence!

I am not sure how a school could accommodate hundreds of parents wanting individual visits. Just not fair on the school if everyone wants a personal visit and disturbs the work of the school. Parents are not entitled to individual visits. Why do parents want to go into classrooms and see a normal working day? How could this possibly be accommodated for large numbers who just wanted to have another look, or a first look? Quite common to refuse I think!

Another thing which I found quite interesting, when viewing schools, was how willing they are for you to see them at times other than their open evenings / mornings.

I visited (or tried to visit) 4 schools, all over-subscribed. As a teacher, i couldn't go to the open mornings all had. One did have an open evening, but for DS (for various reasons at that point a vulnerable child with particular needs) I wanted to see the school 'in session'.

One arranged a special 1:1 tour with an assistant head, who as well as showing me round the school, actively sought out children like my DS as we went round to talk to me about their experiences.

One arranged a late 'mop up' morning tour for me plus a few others who had not been able to attend the main events, during a normal school day, with a sixth former.

One regretted that, for numbers reasons, they really couldn't arrange extra morning tours or individual visits, but were happy for me to speak at length with a senior member of staff and the SENCo.

One refused, point blank, at the receptionist level, and told me off for not going to the open morning. They were so adamant that I was not allowed to see the school, or talk to anyone, outside the official open mornings that I am afraid I was goaded into asking what it was they didn't want me to see on a normal school day.

We went with school 1. Pastoral care for the individual child, including those who are 'unusual', and willingness to see parents as partners in the children's education, has been excellent. I don't hear the same things about school 4.

There won't be many Heads who stand up and admit they have a bullying problem!!!

A head at a school we looked said in her talk "the school does not have a problem with bullying" it made me wonder why she was denying it...

Open evenings where there's pupils in classrooms demonstrating stuff - see how supervised they are. Is the teacher talking to parents while the pupils engage the younger child? Or is the teacher controlling everything? I like to see the current pupils engaged in the work and interacting with prospective pupils. At our school, all new Y7s are expected to help on the (September) Open Evening, but they're very much given choices on where they'd like to help out and most of them show real enthusiasm at this point which wanes somewhat by the time they're in Y10! Are current pupils confident about talking to parents and happy to say their own stuff, or is a teacher breathing down their neck to ensure they don't say the wrong thing?

Ask about things like homework club - are there facilities for pupils to do work at school, use IT and printers, etc. Are there 'breakout' facilities for pupils who have conditions like ADD, autism? Somewhere safe with pastoral staff for pupils who feel threatened or mentally not well?

What's the tutor/mentor system? Will your child have a consistent member of staff responsible for his/her welfare as well as grades? Vertical tutor groups? If so, how effective have they found them? Ask current pupils about their tutor periods.

Active in local sports leagues, matches against other schools? Variety of sports teams and activities to suit all abilities and needs? See if they're playing at home one week and go along and watch. You can tell a lot by seeing how sportsmanlike the players are, talking to other parents on the sidelines, etc.

Check out the toilets. There is a direct correlation between the state of school toilets and the quality of the school

...or it might mean that usage of the toilets is strictly restricted to ensure they stay in immaculate condition.

Check out the toilets. There is a direct correlation between the state of school toilets and the quality of the school.

I would absolutely agree with that. The single sentence that most impressed me in my initial tour of one school was 'We aspire to have the best school toilets in the country', followed by dropping into practically all those we passed on the way round.

I have also been extremely impressed, in visiting a school in a very deprived catchment but which had a new building some years ago, at the extreme care that had been taken in 'designing out' possible toilet issues - it's so common to see schools with beautiful 'atrium areas' but lousy toilets that the focus on the toilets (and their prominent position, with open-plan sink areas straight from public areas) was really refreshing to see. Wasn't surprised to see rapid improvements in Ofsted, results and reputation.

Listen to the talks and decide on the ethos of the school.

To be honest, I would't take much notice. In all the schools we went around, the Head's talk was strong on pastoral care, anti-bullying, etc. Talk is cheap - it's easy to say that the school is caring and clamps down on bullying. Turning that into reality is another thing! There won't be many Heads who stand up and admit they have a bullying problem!!!

Agree on talking to students.

We don't brief our students who are out. We just ask who would like to volunteer. It's always funny yo hear them advising y6s which days are best in the canteen.

Ours will talk happily about progress because we talk about progress abd learning lots in class, but that's not all they are about.

Beware of students who seem like they are parroting lines or seem to have been briefed.

Try to speak to as many pupils as you can.

Schools will say something like "We offer Duke of Edinburgh" but when you speak to the pupils, you find that there are only 20 places and 300 pupils per year group. Then apply that to Musicals, Residentials, Football Teams, etc.,etc. You need to look behind the headlines in the brochure.

When you look round, go into the toilets - they don't expect that to be on "the tour" so is quite an interesting insight.

Do talk to other parents, but realise that any one individual can have a real chip on their shoulder or had their own interpretation on something. However, if you speak to 20 parents and they are all saying the same thing, it's probably true.

I remember going round one school, and began to notice that the work out in virtually every room was all from the same person - didn't give me a great impression.

Remember that, in between your dc being in Yr5 and Yr 11, so much will change - from Government changes with curriculum to individual staff members leaving. Try not to fixate on one single thing (for example being able to do a second language or being able to do separate sciences or whatever), but get a wider picture.

Check out the toilets. There is a direct correlation between the state of school toilets and the quality of the school.

Those of you who think schools have got 'inadequate' because of fences, have you actually read the reports? This happened to a school near me, apparently, but when you read the report you realise there were many more issues.

Listen to the talks and decide on the ethos of the school.

Personally, i would avoid things like thr good school guide that goes in local papers.
Group 1- The 'top 3' schools near me are not where I would send my children. They technically get the most progress, but they have low KS2 entry points and then they push their KS4 students down the route of ECDL and BTECS where getting a distinction is 'equivalent' to an A*. Their data looks awesome but those students haven't had a broad and balanced curriculum.
These schools ahve all been in requires improvement and are trying to get up to good with ofsted so the solution has been to do lots of maths and english intervention and then push lots of students onto courses that make it easier to get points for progress 8.

Group 2- 3 schools givr a broad curriculum to all with personalisation for those with SEN but apparently aren't as high performing according to the local newspapers for progress 8, but that's because these schools offer a full curriculum.
Behaviour is better in the group 2 schools.
Staff morale is better in thr group 2 schools.
Pastoral care is better in the group 2 schools.

For what it's worth my dd's school regularly had a kid trying to run away . I have no idea what that child was dealing with in their life but I remember once seeing the head teacher haring after the child. And another teacher doing the same on another occasion.
Thank god for the new bloody fences.

If you're able to, once you've identified the 2-3 you like most, email or call the school in a few months time and ask for a visit and your. How they respond will tell you a lot. Seeing the school on a 'normal' day will tell you even more.

I also know a primary school that got a "satisfactory" on OFSTED because the fences around the school/entry gate wasn't up to scratch on one inspection.

Our local secondary was rated inadequate because it was.
A relative's school (where they are a teacher) was riddled with violence and drugs) was also rated inadequate.
When I was a kid (the same school- local to my 70s childhood home) it would have been a shoulder shrug and "well what do you expect from that part of town". Not now. After the improvements following the negative inspection, people a desperate to send there kids there.
It wasn't about lanyards and fences I can assure you. My relative was regularly breaking up fights, waiting for the police to get there.

I teach in a secondary school and the other school nearest us just got a 4 in their Ofsted and one of the issues was safeguarding - in relation to a fence/public footpath that has existed for 30+ years but only been seen as an issue in the most recent inspection. So I agree with the pp that this kind of physical safeguarding is a very current issue for inspectors. We have just had a new fence!!

I think your sister, Rose0, has been told a huge porky by the school leadership. I suggest you read the Ofsted Inspection Handbook for the Inspection of schools and see if you can find a section where Inspectors would have ever given consideration to a fence and lanyards! It's rubbish I'm afraid.

As a Governor, I have had training on Inspection of Schools by Ofsted inspectors over many years and I can assure everyone that no mention is made of such petty issues and these issues would never, on their own, cause a school to be Inadequate. What Ofsted do look at is how a school is performing and educating the pupils. Most schools work professionally with Inspectors and a great deal of evidence is available to Inspectors on-line before they even turn up at school. Parents can be sure that the vast majority of recent inspections are valid and based on evidence about the education of children. Secondhand anecdotal stories from the sister of a MN poster who wasn't at the feedback meeting of the Inspectors to SLT at the school, but has reported the school's spin as fact are not really helpful when parents are choosing a school.

Reading the Inspection Handbook should be required reading for all parents so they actually understand the inspection process and how grades are awarded for each category of the inspection.

Gut reaction is often valid. Will your child fit in? You do get feelings for schools and sometimes this is more important than stats and evidence. There is no reason why parents cannot use every bit of information available to them and gut reaction!

I'm not sure if this is entirely helpful but as well as looking at Ofsted and attainment my choices were also dictated by my gut reaction. The school my dc has just started at I walked through the doors and simply went 'This is the school' I really can't explain it. On the opposite the school that all the other parents seemed to loved (and chose) there was something about it that didn't seem right to me.

My sister had a similar experience when looking round schools - there was one school she didn't like, she said she couldn't quite put her finger on it, but something didn't feel right.

I will add I was looking round schools right as I was in the throes of depression and started my anti-d's the day I visited the school I didn't like, I'm not sure if that clouded my judgement or not.

BubblesBuddy my sister actually worked in a school that last year was told if they didn't construct a fence and introduce lanyards for sixth form they would be assessed as "inadequate" by ofsted despite being consistently "good" for years - purely because of the safety issue. Ofsted often like to be able to show they've improved schools without having to actually do much - asking a school to install a fence and establish a lanyard system wouldn't have been a challenge, but could still have been spun as a success story.

I think what's important is the content - as you say, if the issue presented is the teaching, or the method of discipline, then that is a concern. But looking at the overall rating alone is a poor picture.

Ofsted do not rate a school "inadequate" because a fence is missing. Do look at fairly recent inspections and ask if improvements have been made. E.g.: if Ofsted have picked up on 40% of lessons being taught by supply teachers, is that the case now? If 30% of lessons were poor, what has been done to improve teaching? What are the standards now? This sort of Ofsted evaluation really matters and does give parents a steer on what is good and what could be better. It is not unusual for a good school to have 5 years beteeen inspections.

Lots can change in a school year on year with good leadership. So if a school has been less than good it can improve with a good Head. If a school yoyos in and out of requires improvement or worse, I would be wary. A consistently good school would give me confidence.

On open days everyone is on their best behaviour. I would look at what you really want for your child and see how the schools measure up.

Progress 8 is a measure of how much progress pupils make from y6 SATs to GCSE.
Broadly the more positive a score the better, and the more negative score the worse. It is meant to catch coasting schools who have a good intake but then don't push them on much despite getting a good %5 A*-C.
Like all things though it can be 'gamed' a bit by schools forcing certain subjects even if not in the best interest of a particular child or whatever.
You can see the score for high, middle and low attainers so you can see how they do with your type of child.

This is a really helpful thread! It has really helped me think about what I need to look at as I go round.

We did this last year in Y5 and are doing it again for real ATM. What we found last year was there is a huge difference between the Open Evenings and the Open Mornings.

We saw our local school's Open Evening and were really impressed. Went back for a daytime visit and absolutely hated it! Went to another 2 open mornings at other schools and got a really good vibe from both. Still can't put my finger on what was wrong with the first school but both came out and said No.

It really is worth going on a normal school day if you can, even in Y5.