Ethnic minorities in selective schools in London

I went to a super selective grammar in SE London in the early nineties and there was a higher proportion of ethnic minorities there than in the local area. My primary had one Asian child in the whole year of three classes but the grammar had approximately 5 ethnic minority children per class. I was good friends with a couple and they both came from families where education was highly valued.

Our state school didn't even mention there was a grammar when going through secondary choices and the girls school is a mile away. The grammar seemed to make no attempt either though guess they don't need to advertise.

In our case its the grammar that says don't prep your child or they will struggle and need constant tutoring. DD says in her class she is the only one not heavily prepped for the exam when she asked around but only 2 out of 30 seemed to be having difficulty keeping up so I don't think its a major issue though its only start of year 7. The girls seem to get the results one way or another anyway and work is a mix of intelligence and hard work. You can always move from the grammar if it doesn't work out though I would strongly recommend ours.

For those who pass the 11+, it will have been due to a mixture of intelligence, education and preparing specifically for the test. One thing that might make a difference would be if state schools stopped trying to convince parents 11+ tests intelligence alone. The idea that you should not teach a child to pass the test, because they will then struggle if they get to grammar, still prevails in some circles.

Perhaps those from backgrounds where education is a privilege, not a right, value it more. My mother's family were too poor to allow her to take up her grammar school place. I really value education.

Who got into does seem to be a combination of brightness and preparation. Having said that I'm not sure how much you can substitute preparation for brightness, I think the girls that get in are almost all very bright. 75 percent of results at A Level and GSCEs are A or A star. DD says only two of the girls appear to be struggling in her class.

She didn't do much prep and neither did the top boy in her year whose roughly the same as her and both got in though he didn't take up his place as applied for one's miles away. The two other girls who sat, both bright but not top 10 percent didn't get in and one I know had been doing several hours a day 5 days a week and weekend school and the poor kid was dragged from exam to exam. They are both at comps now.

People tend to fear the grammar not the comp here but that's as its Asian dominated. A lot of the Asian families I spoke to did seem to be looking at private or grammar but I don't know how typical that is. I didn't like my comp and also at the primary we've had 4 Headteachers in the last 4 years, both comps have already lost their Heads this year. Grammar Head has been there donkeys years and its very stable and she's lovely, the school is a bit stuck in a timewarp but I quite like that. It's been a nightmare at primary for my son as he's special needs so everything changes each Head change.

It's not a pass mark, it's a ranked list for the available places. You don't just have to be bright. You have to be bright and well prepared. The numbers are so great that there is always a family willing to do that little bit more to be competitive. The lack of spaces drives the competition.

The reason people do so much though is that they aren't sure their kids are bright enough to beat off 1000 others. They think their kids are bright but are not sure they are bright enough. And a culture of fear about Comps drives people to excessive efforts.
Its very sell saying that if you're bright there is no need for lots of prep (message from schools too) but reality is the competition is fierce and people are prepared to do a lot to get a place.

My daughter just did about 12 hours prep then got into the local grammar which takes from around 200 state schools and a similar number of privates. Its roughly 1000 for 180 places.

Many do tutor for years but if your child is bright and top of their year there's no need for that. We did come 25 on the waiting list so I would recommend doing more than we did but you certainly don't need years of prep and if you do chances maybe you will be tutoring all the way through. My DD is happier at the grammar than her state primary. Its true some try for lots of grammars or silly commutes, my DS wont be trying as the boys school is nowhere near.

I value education but I also wanted my dc to be happy.

Educational attainment is more about parenting than school. Asian parents value education and are driven to ensure their children make best use of the education that is on offer. Rarely would a Chinese family say they ' just want their children to be happy' and that high expectations are unnecessary.

The white working class academic failings are down to parents who don't value education and don't aspire to their children reaching the professions. They are far more likely to complain about rather than support the school and to make all sorts of excuses for underachievement.

If you go on the 11+ forum website, there are lots of so-called exam tourists. They enter their kids for all kinds of 11+ exams all over the country, either to secure a grammar place somewhere (claiming they will then move, although evidence suggests few do in reality, or subjecting them to extreemley long and difficult journeys) and it is often the case that they are from minority backgrounds. Queen Elizabeth in Barnet seems especially sought after as 'the best' grammar - people even put their kids in for it when they live in a Grammar county like Bucks already. Either people are looking for free mock practice or the local grammars are just not seen as good enough - a number of people do this stuff and some minorities seem to be highly represented in the single mi red determination to get the places.

In the end, it shows me that hard work really does pay. I cannot believe that all Indian children are super clever, so some at least get e grammar places through being driven and hard work. I think that some white or English people will do exactly the same but lots are willing to ask their kids to work hard but draw a line at these levels and the years and years of tutoring.

Perhaps we have to ask ourselves the Q of if the white kids need to work harder or the system is wrong to let extreme pressure and work seem to be necessary to get the places. Its especially striking in London where there are already larger minority populations, but seems fairly widespread. On one level I applaud the work ethic and focus, but I'm not prepared to go so far myself. Yes I would tutor or home prepare for a year for a local school....perhaps an hour or two a week....but I'm not prepared to tutor for 4 years for 6 hours a week, to allow no social life and to insist on tutoring throughout secondary too.

Yes Lily when we looked around our local grammar, it was predominantly Asian in a predominantly white neighbourhood too. The girls who took us around were as bubbly, charming and as well spoken as any girls at the London super selective private schools that we visited.

DD in a London grammar, one of 3 white girls out of 180, predominately Asian the rest. Area is predominately white but many white parents won't apply and state the number of Asians as the reason.

Asians value education very highly and hard work so like the grammars. My daughter says all the girls are lovely and in the first week found 5 friends who now go everywhere together, first day found her best friend. So all the parents who said she would have no friends as they were Asian were wrong.

Germans also very pushy and efficient!!

A lot of them seem to be not allowed to stop and stare and their lives are micro managed. Also some parents won't accept that their dc isn't that academic.

@Wimbles101, I'm not joking. DS has said this to me on more than one occasion - I would not call him a fanciful child or one prone to make jokes in poor taste. Unless of course his Asian friends are jesting and he's not picked up on the joke.

On the subject of tutoring in grammars, I would agree with what you say. DH is idealogically against tutoring, so DS hasn't been, BUT he has struggled to keep up at times.

Teddygirlonce- I really hope they are joking - I find that very disturbing. I hear tutoring all the way through is pretty standard at reh grammars. I guess you save by not paying fees. I know of many boys who are there on pure tutoring and I think they'd struggle without tutoring.

Coming back the point on physical abuse I know many many Asian doctors and have never come across physical punishment. What I do know is that the mothers will often completely devote their lives to their kids' education and sacrifice everything to get their kids to have the best possible education.

and was a beaten school child in the late 70s/80s (she's early 40s now) I don't want anyone to think it's similar to a child now

DS goes to a grammar that is probably 60% (or maybe slightly higher) Asian. He has a very pancultural friendship group though. It seems that most of the Asian boys at the school continue to be tutored all the way through school to get them where they need to be to become doctors etc... DS has made several off the cuff remarks that Asian friends report that they will be beaten if they don't get the grades expected of them.

Wimbles- I feel bad now so should point out my BF is actually Indian (brought up in Delhi) and was a beaten school child in the late 70s/80s (she's early 40s now)

I don't want anyone to think it's similar to a child now

Someone used the term 'soft skills' - I like to think that's something both my boys are good at. They are strong academically but I think in the workplace they will stand out for their ability to relate and communicate.

Iheartjordanknight thar sounds very traumatic for your BF - I'm Asian and def didn't have that experience. My parents always made it very clear that education was important and unlike here a degree is considered a minimum qualification so there was never any question of not going to uni.

I feel for your BF - I've heard such stories but I know a lot of south East Asians and don't know of any that are that strict. Sounds awful.

I'm sure it must exist but my trouble with my kids is that because my own upbringing was relatively relaxed I find it difficult to be otherwise with my kids. My older DS is very bright but I've always been conscious of not pushing him too far. My younger DS is a different story 🙄🙄

I admit i find this interesting and I wonder how the family dynamics work- particularly around making sure your child doesn't hate you/ burnout. Which I haven't heard of.

My BF is Indian. She used to get beaten (yes beaten, and often in public) if she came home with a poor mark (which would be less than about 98%- she was allowed to drop 2)

Surprisingly she's very pushy with her own children whereas I would've expected her to go the other way.

In a previous role I interviewed 3 HB graduates with really poor cvs for a training role. I couldn't help wonder what had gone wrong. I can't imagine feeling generous if I put all that time and money into being a tiger mum and my child didn't achieve

The Asians around here are very driven by Education & also know many Russian's who are also fiercely motivated especially by languages. It's fascinating. I feel British kids will really need to up the workload to be able to compete with these kids in the future.

BAME cultures are far more pushy towards education - white British boys are actually the least educated ( lowest grades, fewest GCSEs) demographic in the country.

The two Salisbury Grammars are pretty much White, but then so is Salisbury

It's self-perpetuating. I know loads of families who didn't tutor for Tiffin because they didn't want their DC to be in a minority of white children. I would guess the same thinking might work in reverse for some Asian families; they know Tiffin is predominantly Asian and this appeals to them.