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Part-pay schools

60 replies

treadmilldad · 02/09/2017 09:13

My son is due to sit 11+ in a week and I'm so sick of what he and we have gone through to give him the best chance that I feel that I just have to say something. The 11+ pass bar is ludicrously high which means the usual story of paying for private tuition, while facing the postcode lottery but ultimately it's way too much pressure especially on the child and a lost summer holiday. How can this madness persist? There's got to be another way.

As a parent with children at state primary school, it drives me crazy that the education system in the UK has always been so polarised. On the one hand you have very expensive private schools and on the other hand free, but struggling state schools. As a result UK society reflects the polarisation in the education system. There are one or two state funded grammar schools, which many parents aspire to for their children because they just want their children to have the best opportunities in life, but these are the exception.

The gap between rich and poor just widens, and the education system continues to reinforce the divide, as continuously reported in the media. The UK lacks social mobility so much.

The new Free Schools although free appear to have got off to a stuttering start and academies have their own issues. What is for sure is that class sizes of 30 or more children (34 in my child's case) in state schools is a major reason for state school poor performance. If rather than having 1 teacher + 1 or more teaching assistants in a class, 2 teachers could be paid for (i.e. 15 children per teacher) then no doubt state school education would improve. This obviously requires more money hence the following part-pay idea.

The part-pay formula

My wife and I cannot afford to pay for private education for our kids but we could afford to pay a supplement for better education - say half the cost of private fees.

Parents would sign up to paying the amount of fees that they could afford at the start of the school year. There would be allowances however, so that parents who could not afford to pay the fees would not have to pay anything. Parents would commit to paying the amount they wish to from 0-100%, or more, and the state would provide the balance of the fees. Also large housing developers would have to directly support the building, renovation and maintenance of local school buildings, and local communities would be able to freely donate funds to the school to the benefit of that school.

If for any reason the level of funding committed at the start of the year fell below an economically viable level (class size >15 per teacher) then the overall funding gap would be broadcast to parents, the local community and the government who would be asked to commit to paying a certain amount more.

In general the system would be very transparent, but the system would ensure that schools in poorer areas would not suffer v schools in richer areas due to subsidisation, and indeed schools in poorer areas would have more funds available than local authority schools currently do.

There could be additional benefits too. For example rather than the ludicrous necessity of affording extra tuition fees and time for your child to sit 11+, the tuition could be delivered as part of normal schooling as it should already be. Also I can see from my own kids' local authority schools that if only the head governor's role in the school was a well paid one then it would attract a strong leader and the whole school would benefit as a result.

It would be great if one day the state schools could outmatch the private schools and reduce the inequality across the UK.

OP posts:
Ta1kinPeece · 03/09/2017 16:48

Copperbeech
The behaviour and discipline at my school was dire
The only reason a load of us were not expelled was because they needed our fees.
A friend of mine was expelled from four schools but as Daddy was an MP, others kept taking her in.
Assaulting teachers was a game
But parents paid fees so accepted no issue

sadly State schools have to pick up the 93% that private will not touch Grin

Copperbeech33 · 03/09/2017 16:38

The main issue in schools is behaviour. if children behaved, time, staff and resources wouldn't be constantly wasted in responding to poor behaviour, and the amount of money available to spend on education would be well over double.

Schools cannot discipline children if parents don't support them, you have only to look at the thread on here to see how how many parents do not support the school in discipline.

That is where your issue lies.

Copperbeech33 · 03/09/2017 16:34

I would just appreciate it if all students, every day, had a bloody pen!

absolutely!

Copperbeech33 · 03/09/2017 16:32

If rather than having 1 teacher + 1 or more teaching assistants in a class, 2 teachers could be paid for (i.e. 15 children per teacher) then no doubt state school education would improve. This obviously requires more money hence the following part-pay idea

you're whole assumption here is totally wrong, it is NOT cheaper to have a TA doing a job rather than a teacher - TAs are paid by the hour, teachers by the month, typically a TA works less than half the hours a teacher works, but is paid more than half what a teacher earns, therefore far more economical to employ teachers rather than TAs

The issue is, of course, people want TAs jobs, not teachers jobs (including many qualified teachers) TA posts can be swamped with over a hundred applicants, whereas a teaching post can be advertised three of four times before anyone applies at all.

Class sizes are growing, because the number of teaching staff in schools is shrinking, not only because of budget cuts, but also because of difficulties recruiting.

Babypythagorus · 03/09/2017 14:11

It's called a school voucher system, and it pretty much does what blackadder says...

www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/education-39479034

Logans · 03/09/2017 13:18

OP
Well you should get rid of the State Grammar schools for a start! As you know, State primaries are not allowed to prepare for the 11+ beyond doing 1 practice paper per term (I think), so the DC most likely to get in to Grammar schools are those from affluent backgrounds who are at private Prep schools or who have tutors.

Also, get rid of religious schools. It is ridiculous that parents have to pretend to be religious and get 2-7 years church attendance signed off just to get a good education. (For entry to Reception)

If church and grammar schools did not exist the standard of Primaries & Comps would improve dramatically.

OP there is one Private school I know of where the fees are about half the amount they are elsewhere. Maybe there are other schools like this around the country that do cater for the "can hardly afford private" market?

Ta1kinPeece · 03/09/2017 12:29

Lonecat
Ah, fair enough.
S106 deals are great if well written - facilities and infrastructure are provided.
Sadly some of the most critical school place problems are in big cities (London in particular) where the additional housing has been piecemeal infilling so many more people live in areas with no space to expand schools
and banning LEAs from providing places has exacerbated it

Lonecatwithkitten · 03/09/2017 12:23

Talkin no not welborne, both Parishes are villages that have almost merged with a town, though bizarrely my village is postally yet another town, but we are in the South East. My village used to be the most run down part of the local area after the Americans pulled out 20 years ago.

counting · 03/09/2017 12:20

The main problem is in navigating it all and finding the best school and activities for your particular child

Just adding to my own post to say "... your particular child and your particular community."

Many of our choices have been made to benefit our community rather than just ourselves and I think everyone has a responsibility to contribute to their local community (and I don't just mean their faith community, or the local private school community, but the wider community).

annandale · 03/09/2017 12:10

Pardon me for not checking my teenage ds's bag every single day.

One of the reasons I like ds's school and chose it is that there is an automatic detention for not having the right equipment, every time, from day 1 of school. Some local parents think this is too strict but I think it gives a clear message right from the start. Ds checks his own equipment.

C0untDucku1a · 03/09/2017 12:03

I would just appreciate it if all My students, every day, had a bloody pen! If parents cant be arsed checking their child has at least a pen, theyre not going to fund or part fund education.

As a school we have had to buy in fully equiped pencil cases for maths and science exams as so many students did not bring basic equipment TO THE EXAM!

The problem with the education system in the uk is so many parents view it as childcare and no more.

orecchietti · 03/09/2017 11:49

Just in case my previous post was unclear or people haven't read all of it - I'm taking the piss, this is a fucking horrible idea and we already have the mechanism for people paying what they can afford to ensure an excellent education for all: taxation.

Bombardier25966 · 03/09/2017 11:32

Also I can see from my own kids' local authority schools that if only the head governor's role in the school was a well paid one then it would attract a strong leader and the whole school would benefit as a result.

Who do you suggest pays for this? Many schools are having to get rid of highly valued teaching staff, yet you think money should be allocated to another pen pusher?

counting · 03/09/2017 11:24

Treadmilldad I partly agree with your description of the problem, but not your suggested solution, because:
a) A formalised "part-pay" would just introduce another tier - one which you could access and others couldn't.
b) An informalised "part-pay" already exists, in the form of voluntary donations (financial and in-kind), and extra-curricular activities.

My DC goes to a comp. It's a relatively leafy area but lots go private or tutor for super-selectives in a neighbouring borough, or move into the catchment of leafier comps. Our comp has FSM stats at the upper-end for the area, but not as high as some.

We donate £30 per month out of DH's pre-tax income (he's a higher rate taxpayer, so that's less than £20 in real terms). His employer has a matched giving scheme, so that is doubled to £60 by the time it reaches the school.

Many of us parents also donate our time to PTA and governance activities, or volunteer to help with clubs, talks etc.

The school encourages voluntary donations of both kinds but doesn't make people feel obliged - many don't contribute. The money is only used for extra-curricular rather than core-curricular activities. Some of the leafier schools in the area do part-fund core-curricular activities through voluntary donations, but I think that's a slippery slope - the government will only reduce school funding further if it sees some schools able to muddle through. (I would like our school, and others, to have more money, but I want the Government to provide that, and I would be happy to pay higher tax to enable it to be so).

In addition, we spend a lot on our own extra-curricular activities - music lessons, sports clubs, summer coding camps, educational day trips etc. Some families who use private schools cut back on that sort of thing because all of their money goes in school fees, or else they expect the school to provide it all.

So when I said I only "partly" agree with your description of the problem, it's because actually these days there's a huge range of choices out there, not just the polarised "grammar versus bog-standard comp" that you present. The main problem is in navigating it all and finding the best school and activities for your particular child, and having the flexibility to move house if needed - some people are better at doing that than others, and that is where the real disparity lies in the modern system.

BertrandRussell · 03/09/2017 11:24

No point giving the poor an education. They'll only keep coal in it.

Ta1kinPeece · 03/09/2017 11:22

Any parent who wants their children to get a good education should to pay what they can afford, in order to make sure that they get excellent schoolin
So the families earning below median wage (households on £26,000 per year) with no savings
get 50p per year worth of education Hmm

BertrandRussell · 03/09/2017 11:18

"This is a fantastic idea. Any parent who wants their children to get a good education should to pay what they can afford, in order to make sure that they get excellent schoolin"

Yep. To paraphrase Blackadder "The devil farts in the face of the poor again"

Ta1kinPeece · 03/09/2017 11:13

Lonecat
Not Wellborne by any chance ......

shouldwestayorshouldwego · 03/09/2017 09:55

It's hard enough getting parents to pay £20 for a school trip voluntarily. There would need to be an element of compulsion and means testing to get many parents to pay. Costs such as housing would be impacted as parents suddenly need more money for education.

TeenTimesTwo · 03/09/2017 09:41

Agree we need income tax funded comprehensive state schooling

Honestly, people in 11+ areas don't know how badly off they are compared with the parts of the country that have well run comprehensives. (NB I accept that some parts of the country have badly run comps.)

FreelanceProblems · 03/09/2017 09:07

lurked that is a great way to approach this.

Lonecatwithkitten · 03/09/2017 08:32

Large housing developers already have to contribute to schools. My parish and the neighbouring place between 2012 and 2022 will have gained 5000 new homes we will gain a new primary in each parish, my existing parish primary has been able double in size due to the wonderful new building the developer has built. This primary used to be in special measures with support from LEA and developers money it is now outstanding. Additionally our secondary in the neighbouring parish will shortly be having refurbishment and large extension funded by developers.
The local private school and the secondary have an award winning partnership and several A-levels are provided at the private schools sixth form centre ( notably classics and Latin) and the partnership is to be extended to one of the new primaries. The private school runs language, maths, sports and various other events for the existing primaries.
Where schools are open to unconventional models things are changing.

Ta1kinPeece · 02/09/2017 20:34

mineofuseless
DCs state 6th form has boarding - it is NOT the solution
nor are state boarding schools like Vintners

proper funding of state schools and binning selection is a much simpler route

mineofuselessinformation · 02/09/2017 20:32

On the one hand you have very expensive private schools and on the other hand free, but struggling state schools
There is, actually, a middle road - state boarding schools, if you want to consider them....

Ta1kinPeece · 02/09/2017 20:26

Not sure what we could call this system. Maybe 'income tax funded comprehensive state schooling?'
Tee hee

Selective schools are divisive
and damage the education of far more children than they help

get rid of all selection in state schools (god, gonads, non verbal reasoning) and much of the stress would go away

that and get rid of the political concept of austerity and fund education properly