Sam Freedman wouldn't send his kids private

"I think it is much harder the other way round. For poor kids who suddenly find themselves in the presence of wealth and class and social power. Kids that climb the social ladder through their education, job choices and they haven't had the confidence and background to get them ready for interaction."

No need to worry about that in Britain............

This thread makes me feel old - Sam Freedman and his wife were the year below me at college. It annoyed me a few years ago that he was an advisor to Gove and I was a teacher in a London state school, especially as the sum total of his secondary educational experience had been St Paul's. It just seemed to sum up the whole Gove tenure, for me.

I think it is much harder the other way round. For poor kids who suddenly find themselves in the presence of wealth and class and social power. Kids that climb the social ladder through their education, job choices and they haven't had the confidence and background to get them ready for interaction.

I do think its a myth that after school people socialise across the broad spectrum. I can say since I left my comp in a socially deprived area I never ever befriended or got to know anyone who lived in a council home. My world just never got me the chance to mix in those social circles again so I am hugely appreciative that I know poor people exist and the hand to mouth living that goes on. But I think the cons of going to a poor performing comp in a socially deprived area deeply outweighed any the pros in my case.

i don't think it is really is possible to be 'socially aware' when you've been cossetted at private school. I think all kids should go to the same local schools. We all do have to live in the same world. education has got more segregated now than it ever was when i was growing up and of course if means fear as people don't understand each other.

shame really.

I mean the pupils' internal pecking order. The staff are doing their very best.

My kids' state school
And many other small-town state comps!

"Yeah and you get to see the British social pecking order in all its glory... thugs and hard men and rich kids at the top ... hard working kids dismissed as swots and geeks ... bottom of all the SN kids left to flounder "

Where do you get this characterisation from?

I think it depends on the school HopeClearwater - I don't think that would be a fair description of dd's (admittedly rural) comp. There are definitely 'golden kids' - those who are both sporty and academic, but I don't think it's social class related.

noble it isn't. If for arguments sake tower hamlets gets £8k per child, whilst podunk high gets £4k and Podunk private charges £9k, tower hamlets funding is still closer to the private than the state. If you take off pp and say that towers is now on £6.5k, and Podunk on £2.5k it doesn't matter, towers funding is still closer to podunks private than podunks state.

No argument that towers funding doesn't go as far as in a private, but then again podunks state doesn't go as far as towers because Podunk doesn't have the infrastructure of London. And Podunk has just as much deprivation.

Today 18:14 Sadik

I do think that a big advantage of comprehensive schools is that you get to have friends from across a wide range of social backgrounds and abilities

Yeah and you get to see the British social pecking order in all its glory... thugs and hard men and rich kids at the top ... hard working kids dismissed as swots and geeks ... bottom of all the SN kids left to flounder 😡

I agree London schools are a great illustration of what you can do with better funding for education.

I've never really understood the logic that says if you believe private schools should be abolished (generally with the reasoning that if all families had to use them they'd be better) then you must send your children to state schools as they currently stand or be judged a hypocrite.

It's a bit like saying that if you're an anarcho-syndicalist by belief you ought to give up your job in Tescos right now and starve rather than working for a boss (whilst trying to bring down the state and create a utopia for all).

(Should say in the interests of full disclosure that I don't think private schools should be abolished, my dd goes to state school, and I'm self employed)

London Challenge poured many, many millions into state schools (each) that others southern cities relatively 'nearby' with significant areas of deprivation like Portsmouth and Southampton just didn't get. Ditto midland and northern cities. Not a level playing field.

X-post with glitter!

A couple more thoughts. I think his comments about 'not knowing' really refer to having no experience of working class culture, rather than literally not knowing that working class people exist.

So the point about not realising that if you're being rude about Sun readers you could easily be being rude about your listener, or about their parents / grandparents is a good one. Or my then MiL being amazed that I had a friend who hadn't been to university and wondering what I could have in common with them - pretty offensive given none of my family had stayed at school beyond 16 (ditto most of my pre-uni friends).

And Needmoresleep if he's choosing state schooling because he thinks it is the best choice (rather than because of some abstract principles), there's no logical conflict in then deciding private is the better choice at 16.

Um. Are people on this thread reading more than the linked-to Twitter thread?

Because I'm not sure how you get from this:

My experience - going to an expensive private school - is that I had literally no conception of the world @michael_merrick describes.
It wasn't until I started working in education that I realised this other world existed. It's one reason I wouldn't send my kids private.

To "no idea the working class existed" ?

Personally never heard of the guy before today but the thread doesn't seem objectionable - he's aware he lived in a privileged little bubble, and would like his kids to be a bit more aware than he was.

We all want the best for our children and so that means sending them to the best school if possible.

Not wanting to send your child to a private school does not mean that you'd send them to any school - it just means that you have certain principles about private education.

I wonder how long his principles will last.

There is a massive jump at sixth form, especially in London, in the proportion of kids privately educated. It may reduce with the new pseudo-private sixth forms like Harris Westminster and King maths school, alongside the Grammars, but there is a pattern of parents not wanting to take chances at the crucial pre-University stage.

Very few Middle class parents living in challenging London catchments retain the moral high ground all the way through their children's education.

I do think that a big advantage of comprehensive schools is that you get to have friends from across a wide range of social backgrounds and abilities. In London in particular you're maybe not going to get that if you go to a private school esp as they mostly seem to be quite selective.

Whether you think that is an advantage in life depends on what you want for your dc I guess. In the same way that independent schooling gives people a certain level of confidence, contacts etc which clearly help in many professions, feeling comfortable in a wide range of social situations can also be an advantage in life I'd say.

If you already come from a background where you can give your dc confidence, contacts, any extra backup tutoring etc to pick up holes in their education, then you could easily see state schooling as the better choice for them.

"Are people suggesting that London state schools are funded enough to be as good as private schools?"

People have to believe this. And in "leafy comps"

So that people who support state schools and use them can be disregarded. They aren't using ordinary state schools, you see.

If he genuinely grew up with no knowledge of "the working classes" (patronising twat) the problem wasn't that his education was private; the problem was it was bad.

"He had no idea the working class existed? Did he grow up in a cellar?"

Or an ivory tower?

He had no idea the working class existed? Did he grow up in a cellar?