It is really feasible to do 4 "hard" A levels?

Bertrand - wasn't having a pop at you - really not

This is something on my mind - if you and Goodbye could possibly bung over to my thread I would appreciate thoughts .

Otherwise will have to fall back on to flight radar - ever thus .....

Bert I'll characterize my DC as I wish and I do so accurately. I've come across plenty of quite extraordinarily exceptional people in my life and I'm not going to waste my time or others' on MN by lauding my relatively bright DC. I will however make comments based on my own experience of their path through education, as I take a fairly common sense view which has helped others on these threads reasonably regularly, judging by the return comments I get. Others' advice has helped me and I'm glad to share my experience similarly. Not complicated. What interests me is that you still insist that very close monitoring of your DCs school life is the way to go and my wisdom thus far is that exactly the opposite is true - the DC say that I'm the most laid back parent amongst their peer group that they know in relation to school - pause for thought there?

Further maths as a 4th A-level is reasonable, because someone who is bright enough to do Further maths will generally not see as much workload generated from Maths A-level.

It is a very difficult course though, a full A-level in terms of workload (those who see it as half an A-level have it the wrong way around, for the kids who take it, it would be Maths that would be the 'half'). Unless the student is a truly exceptional mathematician, they will need help with it. If self-study is being considered because the school don't offer it, then support is available. The Further Maths Support Programme can help arrange tuition at another college, or online. furthermaths.org.uk/study_fm

noblegiraffe - as a maths teacher what would your opinion be on self-studying further maths as a 4th A level?

As a contrast to all the 'My kids did 10 A-levels and it was fine', I did 6 (inc Gen Studies, which I do include because I got an A ) and it was shit. I enjoyed all the subjects individually, and couldn't decide which to take so I did them all. Then I got trapped with the idea that giving up anything would be admitting failure and letting teachers down, and really things weren't that bad. I met homework deadlines, had friends, a boyfriend, went out on a Friday night, got my driving licence but my timetable was packed, including lunchtimes and I worked pretty solidly every evening and was constantly consumed with schoolwork with no time to myself.
To an outsider, I'd have looked fine. Teachers never said anything. But mentally it wasn't ok and I had a horrible two years. Even though my final results were good, it wasn't worth it.

My children were not particularly exceptional, they each had several friends who did 4 A levels and got good grades. It is not just about university entrance, sometimes they really want to carry on with a subject but need another for their course. I was proud enough that DS1 got to Oxford, having 7 is a fantastic achievement for one family and very relevant to everyone else as there must be a plan that works as well as raw ability. DS2 did a subject you can only do at a few universities, not including Oxbridge.

" in the days before A* came in"

My son is halfway his A levels , he is doing Maths (with mechanics) Computer Studies, Physics and Chemistry. He is managing to juggle them all fine. The 6th form he is at don't do AS Levels as a rule (although they have put them through AS maths just to see where they are) So if he is organised, and enjoys the subjects, he should be OK.

DS1 did English Maths History and French A levels at local state grammar, he enjoyed history but was not happy with the standard of teaching so kept on with his French to be sure he got 3 really good A levels, he got 4 A's (in the years before A came in) He was a real grafter and even worked in Tesco Saturday and Sunday when he was in the 6th form. DS2 did English, History, Latin and Art the school didn't offer Latin but his French teacher offered to take a small group. He needed Art for his degree. He got AACB The two A's were needed for uni, the art at no less than a B for uni too, the Latin was just out of interest. He worked weekends too. They were both quite disciplined individuals who did their essays etc. when ;required, rather than procrastinate, neither of them found it particularly arduous though DS2 found the art took up a lot of his time.

The unis we have looked at want biology.

@LoniceraJaponica - 4 is usual at my school, 5 common (for Further Mathematicians), more is not unheard of (can't give specific details as would be outing but think students with more A* at A Level than the vast majority get at GCSE! How do they find the time? I'm not sure to be honest. However, years ago I taught a student who self-taught Physics A Level as an extra (having decided last minute to do Eng Lit). He did it as he wasn't very good at being alone with his thoughts. He needed to be busy (a perfectionist as well). He was an exceptional student as he was brilliant at pretty much everything. I suspect many of the students with lots of A Levels are similar.
Regardless, I suspect we will see less of this with the changes to A Level. For example, Creative Writing is disappearing as Gove disapproved of the 60% coursework and to be a course worthy of the name it should be portfolio based rather than exam and that isn't going to happen in the current climate. The change to AS levels also makes it more risky (although in my own subject that change isn't massive I know it's a major change to many others).

Perfectly reasonable combination. If well taught at school, there's no reason why he can't get top grades in those four.

A more sensible thing would be if the maths takes off, add further maths and eliminate biology. If he wants to do science or engineering, further maths is very helpful indeed at university. Biology less so! It's not even essential to do biology for medicine.

And 7 in one family to Oxford? Still just an everyday story of country folk?

Of course Mumsnet education discussions should be welcoming and representative of parents with children of all abilities. It's pretending to be something you're not that's the issue. And which can be misleading. Be open and proud of your exceptional children. Why wouldn't you be?

And incidentally, no I don't know anything else about them- but if they have faced significant challenges in other areas of their lives that makes them more exceptional, not less!

"They start driving, drinking, going out, partying, clubbing, having relationships etc."

Driving - not yet. DD has only just turned 17
Going out - occasionally
Drinking - no, she won't be 18 until she leaves school. She won't even be able to legally drink at year 13 prom
Partying - occasionally
Clubbing - no, she hates it

I agree though. Life gets much more interesting at that age.

5 A levels !!! . DD's school wouldn't be able to fit that many subjects into the curriculum. And why 5?

At the university/med school open days we went to this year they stated that there was absolutely no point in taking more than 3 as they won't even look at them all. They even said that if one of the results was lower it would go against the student. All they want is 3 good A levels. I got the impression that universities think that schools are overdoing the quantity at the expense of quality.

The med schools even said that they don't even pay much attention to personal statements. All they want is 3 A levels - minimum 3 As, a high UKCAT score and volunteering experience. Then the tough interview process.

Are things different this year? Is it because the A levels are linear now?

Bert you always give me a hard time, about everything! I think I should be allowed to know my DC rather better than you, including an awareness of the difficult times - which I don't tend to post about. MN has been very useful to me in that regard; extremely informative.

Lonicera it would be completely absurd if participation on MN threads on education were restricted only to those absolutely in the middle of the ability band with no particular extra curricular talents. Bert has a habit of extolling the brilliance of my DC without having a clue about them or any of the challenges they might have faced. She has adopted her own version of my family's life which happens to be extremely wide of the mark. It's quite funny actually, but reflects interestingly on her rather than me. My DC are very normal, but on the bright rather than brilliant side with the good fortune of having a good co-ed grammar school on the door which has served them well. Nothing warranting massive hyperbole there.

Thank you Basilisk, as usual :)

I'm not giving goodbye a hard time. I am delighted she has very bright children. I am just pointing out that it is a bit tedious that she seems to need to pretend she doesn't.

Yes, my dd is just about to start her final year at a university in a subject that couldn't be less vocational if it tried. She is periodically very anxious about what happens next....I am encouraging her to go to the careers service and start looking at "Sits Vac" pages, but at the moment she is preferring to panic..........

Both mine took five. DD managed this despite starting a new schools in sixth form, having very low processing speeds, not taking double maths, being a sports captain and prefect, having two EC activities at County/regional level, maintaining weekly volunteering through Y13 and plenty more besides. Both also had good social lives, and DS managed plenty of gaming. DD did not

There were advantaged and disadvantages.

I think you need to:

1. not be a perfectionist. Good enough is good enough. And get homework done quickly and without fuss.

1. Have good teaching, a good memory and really listen in class so you pick things up and retain as you go along.

1. Taking science subjects helps, though DS managed 2 essay subjects.

1. Have friends doing the same, so it feels normal. Both DC often met up with friends to do homework first and then go out.

Plus points were:

1. Lots of variety, great if you enjoy your subjects.

1. Flexibility. What you think you like at 16 can be different to what you like at 18. DD in particular found she preferred maths and physics at A level. DS discovered he did enjoy maths more than he had expected but not enjoy history. This means a wider choice of degree. DD who will be studying medicine, is thinking of intercalating to study medical engineering. DS is on a course which did not count Further Maths in offers, but he is very glad he had it.

1. A wider skill set. Both did quite a practical (60% course work) A level. Academically softer but it involved a lot of practical problem solving. Ditto the scope to take a humanity or in DDs case, maths.

1. Reduced risk. DD had a nasty D&V virus before one A level. She sat the exam dosed up to the eye balls and had to leave early. She was calm, did her best and wound up with an A rather than the predicted A*. I don't think she would have been as calm if it had really counted. There is distinct advantage at exam time to be able to have a bad paper and not feel your University place has gone.

1. Preparation for University. DS has had to work far harder at University, DD expects to do the same. If you are used to doing more at school the transition should be easier.

1. University offers. Maybe. DS still got three rejections. That said it must have helped that he was able to offer a good combination including double maths and a humanity. My guess is that despite her SpLD evidence that DD could cope with a heavy load did her no harm.

Disadvantages were:

1. Fewer free periods. DD had none at all, even though she was at a private school with longer days and Saturday morning school. She was astonished when friends told her how much free time they got at a nearby state school taking three A levels.

1. Log jams. DD had to hand in three courseworks in the same week that she had three interviews. (Yes, I should have added organisation as a key requirement!) The exam timetable was also pretty tedious, and did not allow for much last minute revision.

1. Some impact on grades. I don't think DS was affected. DD missed the grade above in three subjects by a single UMS. Perhaps only taking three might have altered this, perhaps not, but again it meant that the B did not matter. They tend not to know what grades friends got, but both have close friends who achieved 5A*s, both of whom had social lives and achieved in other areas as well.

Shall we just not give Goodbye a hard time because she has bright children?
Some do some don't -

Anyway thinking of starting a thread re " what do you do after finals ? " Ds was a little down yesterday and ( my opinion) a bit to do with amount of work combined with " what do I do next ?" ( not a vocational degree )

would appreciate views from those who have DCs later in their university career - Any good ?
Will probably give it a go anyway

Please don't forget that sixth form is also about growing up and having a good time! They start driving, drinking, going out, partying, clubbing, having relationships etc. I think doing A levels as they are turning 18 is not compatible really! I wish they either did them a year earlier or a year later as year 13 particularly is full of distractions.

Thank you Bertrand. Your post echoes how I feel, and somehow validates my experience. Having 7 exceptionally bright children and normalising how clever they are has made me feel a little "where have I gone wrong".

None of DD's friends are as clever or well accomplished as them. Maybe it is me who lives in the real world.

Goodbyestranger- I am sorry if you feel stalked.

But you really must stop your using your own exceptional family as if they are examples of what most of the rest of us can aspire to. It is wonderful that your children can stroll to their local super selective school, and that so far 7 of them have gone from there to Oxford. I am in awe of their, and, by extension, your achievements. But, without that context, people are likely to be worried by your comments on what is doable- and might question the choices their more usual children have made. Of course your dd can do walk 4 A levels, an EPQ, have a riotous social life and a part time job. But most can't. And it is frankly irresponsible to suggest they can.

I think with the changes to curriculum and 6th form funding we may see a move back to mainly 3 with 4 as an exception (we will still have students who do an 'extra' if they can cope). Interestingly extras have often been closely linked or an extra curricular activity. Our top mathematicians do Maths and Further Maths together (with some lunchtime sessions). I had some success with the soon to be defunct Creative Writing A Level in an hour a week (with students who were writing for fun anyway so the coursework wasn't a chore to be completed). I think the way the cuts are heading more and more schools will drop 4 timetabled A levels. More concerning are the local schools who are dropping 'expensive' subjects like Technology and Music.

Well I do buy the 3 good grades is better than 4 less good ones, but I have a less than perfect child who doesn't have good time management skills, and who is currently being assessed for CFS. So for her, dropping the really time heavy A level has been a massively important step.

No university that we have looked at is interested in 4 A levels, and they all take the same "trite" view that 3 good grades are better.

You are very fortunate goodbye to have such motivated, academically bright children.

DS going into 3rd ( final) Yr so can I caveat with thus far - not that anyone is bothered apart from me