Difference in grammar schools vs high schools

Just been to the junior music concert at my daughters grammar school (last night) . She is year 7.

There were a lot of seriously good musicians there. A wind band, a junior strings ensemble, a choir and a junior orchestra.
Plus solos/duets from girls on a wide variety of instruments and vocals.
Only girls from years 7-9.

I cannot imagine a concert of this level at many comps.

But is this because it is a grammar?
maybe/maybe not.

All of these girls (including my daughter obviously) have come from households where they have prioritised learning an instrument in some way. They have had parental support (and pushiness?) to keep going and to achieve a high standard.
families where they encourage music practice etc.
and then (and maybe this is where the grammar part comes in) they are now together at a school which values that and has staff who are prepared to run junior orchestra etc.

It was like a independant school last night. But and it is a big but, if this town did NOT have a grammar, where would those girls be?
In the comp, or in private schools?

I am guessing that

1. many of these parents couldn't afford private (lots of teachers as parents)
2. many of these parents moved here because there was a grammar education on offer.

... this is in London, BTW. Lucky to live in an area with great State school

I have one at a Comp, one at a Superselective

Biggest difference is that at the grammar there are no children with behavioural difficulties. The Comp is truly inclusive.

Teaching is good at both - very energetic teachers who know my kids well

Grammar is more laid back and there's less homework

High expectations at both

I think parents are different - at the Grammar there's a larger number of parents who simply would not, it seems to me, countenance their child going to a Comprehensive - if they hadn't got into the grammar, (via lots of tutoring), then they'd have gone Private. Hence more overt pushiness and anxiety. Anxiety better hidden at the Comp. I hasten to add this is not all parents, by any means.

As lots of PPs have said, it's difficult to generalise. Lots of great leafy comps offer all that Grammars do with similar results.

DS and DD are at single sex Grammars in an area where the 'comps' are also sought-after. My DC like their schools because everyone works hard, it's cool to be bright and there's no disruption. Both like being single sex too which is rarer in comps.

agree chocolate.
I would point out that Balcarras doesn't really lose the top layer to the grammar, as Pates recruits from such a wide area and is so super super selective that in reality only a very few children go to Pates who would other wise have gone to Balcarras.

I would also point out that Balcarras has quite a small catchment and the house prices within that area are higher.

I'm sure I've read other threads that show that even in full grammar areas, the secondary moderns (or Uppers as they are called in Bucks) in the most affluent areas do extremely well. These are schools which don't have the top 25 or 30% as the Grammars are not superselective but full grammar areas - hence the key thing that makes the difference is not ability, but affluence.

In the less affluent areas of Bucks and in some of the other full grammar areas, even the Grammars don't perform as well. This is just in terms of progress and raw results and I could t comment on facilities, attitudes to work etc.
Thinking about Gloucestershire which has the highly sought after Pates in Cheltenham, the equally highly sought after Comp (guess it's not a full comp because the top are creamed off, but it still has a good range of ability and some opt not to go in for 11+ as they see this is a totally comparable option) Balcarras gets extremely good results. I have known people who work there, who have also worked in the Grammars and the Independents in the town too, who have said that working in that Comp they have experienced the best behaviour of in any of the schools and a brilliant work ethic. The thing to note is that Balcarrass is in an affluent area of an affluent town with a small catchment area. Like the Uppers in Bucks around AMersham or Beaconsfield, the parents are affluent and interested in education. Despite arguments for Grammars and social mobility, in the end, parental affluence has greater impact than we like to think.

"bunsen burners used properly from year 7 in science”

How do you think Bunsen burners are used in comps?

you don't have to look far to find comps which are struggling to do practical science/tech due to issues around classroom safety. A pp said their ds was using power tools etc in year 7 as behaviour was so high.

I posted at the top of the thread about ds and dd1s grammar, and why it was different, but I totally agree with those who have said there is selection according to where the school is, as well as 11+

12 miles down the road is a lovely leafy country town, packed full of white middle class aspirational parents. No grammar school, although there are grammras in other towns which are accessible if you chose to do 11+ etc.
The 2 schools in this town are amazing. They offer all that the grammar offers.

meanwhile we don't live in that town, the town we live in is a large mixed community with a lot of issues. Pretty much every school here has issues and poor results, high staff turnover etc. If ds and dd hadn't got into grammar we would have been applying to the comprehensive schools in neighbouring small towns, where the behaviour and expectations are high.

2 of the schools in our town have recently been taken over and are undergoing serious reform. A third got n offsted RI and a new head. It will be interesting to see if they can acheive the sort of hard working high expectation atmosphere available in the grammar, and the good schools in the 'naice' town

Having taught at both I would say

Buildings and resources -
Comprehensive - endlessly repainted, brand new furniture and computers. Lights, Apple Mac rooms, fabulous sports equipment. Everything sparkles.

Grammar - barely anything painted ever. Looks appallingly scruffy. Barely any money for resources.

Parents
Comp - some incredibly aggressive but on the whole totally supportive.
Grammar - some over-invested and demanding meetings for really tiny inconsequential matters.

Students
Comp - a lot more don't care or have career lined up with dad. Takes a lot more preparation to tempt them into doing their work
Grammar - they are more proactive and are more genuinely interested in their work.

No I'm not in the NW, we are close to London. It is 95% Asian but that's fine, went round and they were sweet, kind, quiet lovely girls and they took great care of her little brother who's Aspergers so spent half an hour reading a interesting maths book! when he went round. Just wish they took boys. Obviously we have got to try it but so far they have been amazing. Accepted offer 4pm, invited to parents evening same evening where they had her class, her house, a lanyard and usb stick for her and details of a second induction as she had missed the main one.

My son wants to go to the comprehensive which I'm apprehensive about but boys grammar is 45 mins away in a not very safe area and he's always having problems at school so I've gone with it. Am relieved to here some people saying their comprehensives are fine for bright kids. I went to comprehensive and went to Cambridge but kind of got picked on throughout it so didn't want DD to have the same. Just told her off for swearing, first time ever heard her, and she tells me she has to do it or she will have no friends at school as everyone swears plus she says she's horrible as everyone tells her that. She's really kind and I'm happy she's moving from that. Academically she's been fine there though.

Lily2007 are you in the NW by any chance. The grammars in the city next to me has lots of Asians but that certainly wouldn't put me off!

Agree with the general view of differences. Will just add that they aren't exclusive to areas with grammars. Round here we have the same thing, except instead of an exam we use social status to select. So the mainly mc dc who get the good comprehensives get a full range of academic subjects and the mainly lower income dc get a secondary modern range of subjects. Might be different in a city or large town but here we just skip the unfair exam and use the apparently fairer system of separating dc and deciding educational needs/ outcome based on the parents economic standing.

Two DDs at Grammar years 9/12 (High School) !

The major differences: 1. Standard of behavior, light years away from the almost 'bear pit' behavior of the 'Upper School' pupils. This includes hurling disused Mcdonald's Milkshake cartons at passing cars while shouting out swear/sexual words that would shock Chubby Brown !

1. The standard of the school uniform, or more how the pupils wear it. This buys in to the fact the girls at the DDs High school friends are very 'proud' of their school they do not want to be compared with the sloppy 'scruffy' look of the other schools. They have respect for themselves and this is displayed in the way their uniform look very smart.

1. DDs school has not suspended a pupil in the 6 years DD1 has been there. Contrast this to the constant suspensions and regular permanent expulsions of the 'Upper Schools'. bringing Drugs, Knifes or threatening to beat up 'High School' girls . This has nothing to do with academic limitations , but morality and expectations of the individuals and their families.

Sending a child to Grammar school or (social exclusive ) Comprehensive is more than just education ! It is about instilling expectations aspiration and a sense of self worth in to a child.

If DS hadn't passed the 11+ he would have gone on to the high school up the road from us. Both achieve excellent results (The Grammar gets higher results but not by that much considering the range of intake). Both are based in gorgeous, very old buildings with extensive leafy grounds. I'd say the main differences I've noticed when looking round and speaking to his friends who are now at the high school are:

• Grammar buildings are dropping to bits a lot more than the high school. High school has spent a fortune on new buildings, sports facilities, establishing their own farm for students (DS2 loves visiting the animals there!) and on a new canteen.

• The Grammar is single sex, though works closely with the Girls Grammar.

• There are boarders at the Grammar. It's one of the few state boarding schools left these days.The After School Club for day pupils is available until 9pm and the boys have dinner with the boarders as part of that. There seems to be an expectation that both parents will have highly demanding careers so won't be home until late if at all, hence the need for boarding and v late after school provision. The High School seems, like many primaries, to expect parents to be SAHMs who are available to help out, make costumes for plays etc. from speaking to parents there.

• Academically, students can do two languages at the High School for GCSE, but they don't have to do any (unless this has changed now). There's a big focus on IT and there are several huge rooms with banks of computers. DS asked where all the computers were when we visited the Grammar! They have very few in comparison. Instead there's more of a focus on a 'classical' education - Latin is compulsory, Greek is encouraged, many boys are cadets and do more 'middle class' sports such as rowing, lacrosse etc. Teacher retention is high and many, many more teachers have doctorates than at the High School. The sports teams often have coaching from ex international players.

• The High School has loads of trips, exchange visits and so on, mostly within Europe. The Grammar does this but also trips to Japan, Australia, China (v v expensive). The cricket team didn't just play against other local schools this term, they also played in an international competition in Barbados, which is a yearly event.

• Pastoral care is fantastic at the High School. They really do look after every single student and the kids always look happy and enthusiastic. The Grammar says they have great pastoral care, but I've heard otherwise from a few people. They do seem to be more interested in turning out Old Boys who are world leaders, international sportsmen and leading scientists than in whether kids are coping well and happy. I may be being unfair here though as I don't have experience of any problems here yet.

• The uniform costs a similar amount at both schools, but the High School students can wear white t-shirt and black shorts/trackie bottoms for most sports. The Grammar boys have to have regulation rugby shorts, rugby shirt, rugby socks, swimming trunks, well basically every sport there has it's own special kit and socks that differ from the other sports' kit and socks. Only available from one shop at huge cost. There's help available but it must still be a massive struggle for many whose parents aren't high earning high flyers.

I'll be honest, I had serious reservations as a staunch feminist about sending DS to a single sex school which is rather stuck in the 1950s in comparison with the thriving High School down the road. He would achieve well at either. But he fell completely in love with the place and worked hard to pass the 11+, so we'll see how it goes.

I don't think you can say grammars do x whilst comprehensives do y.

I've worked in a range of comprehensives and I wouldn't say there's that much difference between high performing comprehensives and a grammar (other than social selection).
E.g. Lower ability students would focus on getting 8 strong passes at gcse, but top end can do 10/11/12.
Languages are standard with at least 2-3 languages being offered
Full range of extra curricular sport, music and drama competing at a high level.
Full range of academic subjects
Excellent outcomes
Targeted revision support
Triple science is available to all who want to do it
All children so double English (only ever seen single English in struggling schools)

Sweet sleep - It varies from grammar to grammar. We have a girl's one in the next town and a boys one 45 mins away. The catchment area is on the council's website and its huge around 400 schools. Some grammars have no catchment. Some have a priority area plus out of area for which you in reality need much higher scores. Ours you can apply from out of catchment but you are ranked below the 1000 people who apply in catchment so no one ever gets in unless they move. There's an 11 plus forum online. Our grammar never visited our school so only found out about it by chance. DS will be going to the comp as the journey is too far and he doesn't want to sit it. There's a lot of very bright kids in our comps too as its such a wide catchment. Some white parents here won't apply to the grammars and DD has been told by a few white parents she won't have any friends as its full of Asians! Each school is different and always should visit.

My two daughters go to a "leafy" co-ed comprehensive, however my first DD spent a year at an all-girls grammar before we moved house. She says that the top two sets for each subject work at the same pace she was working at at the grammar school and are all given the option of taking 10-11 GCSEs in solid academic subjects. The atmosphere is more lively at the comp, but I think this is more to do with it being a co-ed rather than single sex. Her peers have ambitions to attend RG universities to study subjects like medicine , economics, sciences etc. The school also run an Oxbridge pathway which starts in Year 10 to help prepare the brightest students for university applications. There are a wide range of extra -curricular activities which include debating, young archaeologist's society, sport,music and drama. They run lots of trips, to Europe, but also to South America, Iceland and the US. In my opinion, a good comprehensive can provide an education of as high a quality as a grammar school can, especially if your child is likely to be in top sets.

Can someone please tell me- are grammars only for the ppl who live near them like how they have catchment areas.

We live next door to a city that offers several grammars but is that just for the ppl who live nearby? How does it work?

Ds has just finished year 7 at our local grammar. We have found that it doesn't suit everyone, and sadly he is one of the ones who it doesn't suit. Whilst it has great results these seem largely to be due to the selective entry and I have heard that they edge out non performing children before sixth form.
From experience I can say that they have no or very little experience with learning difficulties other than perhaps high functioning autism. Dyslexia is pretty much non-existent as far as I can see and has flummoxed some of the teachers (although not the wonderful English teacher).
Response to failing a test/exam has been detention and a retake with little/any other support.
I would still send another child, but now I am more clued up it would be a specific sort of child who would benefit from the environment. It's definitely not for everyone. The difficulty here is that the alternative schools are largely rated inadequate, so the choice is pretty limited.

We don't have grammars. The comps are called 'high schools' though, why is that?

*Huge difference here (Midlands) I can only compare the schools that my children have attended to this is by no means guaranteed to be the same across the country. I have 1 in Grammar school and had several through high school.

The students are expected to go to University from the Grammar preferably a Russell Group Uni or Oxbridge instead of just being expected to get a few GCSE's and do anything upon leaving school as long as its not 'nothing..

School exchange trips appear to be to more unusual places so Iceland, Japan instead of the standard France or Germany.

I don't know any Grammar student who doesn't represent the school in some way. Either sport, music, STEM events, public speaking etc

Better access to national events at the Grammar. STEM/young engineers/Young Musician of the Year entries etc This does not happen at all at the local high school. There are no out of school activities other than football (boys team only) and netball (girls team only).*

All of this describes our local high school 😀

Trips to Vietnam, India, Iceland, USA. Extra curricular includes sailing etc, lots of stem activities, ditto engineering and English. High expectations, many go to Russell group, a few to oxbridge and the majority to university.

I have worked in a few grammars around the country. I also have been to quite a few for visit and interview. They range from two in a small town, top 10, top 2 in the country to middle of the road grammar in a fully selective county. They are all different. Some of them receive much less funding due to location and they have less pupil premium so less money. They all have problems like any normal school but on a lesser scale. However, as they have less funding, problems are not dealt with as well.
In the two superselective girl grammar, that are regularly in 2nd to 10th in the league table, there are still cases of school refusers, bullying, poor (normally uninspiring) teaching. It is not something that the schools see very often so they don't deal with it very well so it led to many other problems. The middle of the road grammar is good but too much staff turn over, very uninspiring teaching from too many teachers as they seem to rely on the students to get good results than the other way round.

I think you need to go into schools, ask questions, do your research to find the best school for your DC. Don't rely too much on stereotyping and other people's experience. It only gives a snapshot of what they know. I have no experiece of comp apart from my training year, which was years ago so I can't say anything about comp and will never claim to know anything other than the very basic info.

My son went to a high achieving mixed secondary school .15 gcses , 4 A levels .Combined cadet force ,Duke of Edinburgh scheme.Lots of opportunities .Just didn't get that feeling from our local grammar school

Still has, and still is btw.

My grammar school had its own squash courts . And it was a boarding school. So felt very much like a private school.